Category: the Rant Board
I attend a university with 40000 other students. I walk to classes every day through dozens of smells I can't even name, blaring horns and sirens, booming bass speakers, and noisy equipment located at intersections where I need to hear traffic patterns. The sidewalks are full of trees and poles and holes and other junk I can't even name. If I'm careless with my cane and collide with one of the pieces of junk another pedestrian might grab me. It's happened before. If I get too close to one of the pedestrians they might break my cane and leave me standing there. That's happened also. And I've developed an intense fear of being hit by a car. On top of the fear and sensory overload, people just won't leave me alone!
Today I was walking to the building where I take my exams. I had just finished with a little adventure crossing a street, so I was already stressed. My left shoulder bumped against a newspaper box on the sidewalk, so I tried to move it out of my path. It was too heavy. I was about to walk on when this guy came out of no where, grabbed me by the arm, and said, "let me help you." He started explaining to me about the newspaper box as if I wasn't already acquainted with it. When I'm tense I'm more abrupt than usual, and some people tell me I sound mechanical. I can't remember word for word all of what I said, but I know I told him that I didn't like to be touched. Apparently he had been on his cell phone. I heard him saying to the other person, "sorry about that, I was trying to help someone around a newspaper box when she decided to be all rude."
Wait a minute...That's not fair! HE touched me, tried to pull me somewhere without asking and take away the control I had over my own body, and somehow I'm the one who was rude? This isn't even the worst incident I've had. Once, in a hallway inside a quiet and relatively empty building, someone grabbed me from behind by both arms for no apparent reason. I was tense for hours after that.
Sightlings tell me I should be all understanding, but I can no more empathize with them than I can with a duck-billed platypus. We're too unlike for much communication to take place. Maybe an electrified cane or a suit of prickly pears would make the bad behavior stop, but I don't have those. I have to conclude that most of the people around me are either stupid or crazy. Why else would the world around me make so little sense?
I get what you're saying. I don't like to be touched all the time either, and it happens more than I care to admit. But most people don't mean to be invasive. I think they're genuinely trying to help, but not everyone knows how to go about it. Yes, in a perfect world everyone would just ask us if we needed help. Though I'm sure that wouldn't please everyone either. The guy probably didn't even realize you were upset, and misunderstood your jenuine discomfort and outward reaction for rudeness. In an ideal situation it would have been a great opportunity to teach someone, or even strike up a conversation. In an ideal situation he would have just asked without laying hands on you. But we don't live in an ideal world, and given your level of stress it's understandable that things turned out the way they did. A question though. Why did you want to move the obstruction rather than stepping around it? Honest quiry; not trying to be a dink.
I think I should clarify. I'm not trying to put the onus all on you here. how he handled the situation wasn't right either.
I wanted an unobstructed path for next time. I also wanted to line up the box with the other boxes on the sidewalk. Life is better that way.
I'm sorry, but I'm sick of this, "they have good intentions but just don't know
how to go about putting them into actions" excuse. If they did this stuff to a
sighted person, they'd probably get slapped, or peppersprayed, or at the very
least get a furious glare from whoever it was. So, since they're too stupid to
realize that we're humans and don't want to be touched, I have to give them
props for good intentions? I say no. I say if someone grabs me I have every
right to treat them as if they are assaulting me. Because that's basically what
they're doing. I don't care what their intentions are. Unless those were
intentions were to pull me out of the way of a speeding bus or a falling piano, I
expect some goddamn respect.
The same can be said for my guide dog. And please forgive me highjacking
the post a little. I don't accept this, "But he's so cute" excuse. Girls are cute, I
don't get to walk up to them and fondle them without getting arrested. Why is
my dog's cuteness an excuse for someone to pet him? I could understand if that
person were four, but when you're an adult, I expect you to show some self-
control.
I feel the same way too, I have had people grab me when I'm working with my dog. I was so frustrated because they my dog got distracted.
Really? When I had a dog, people grabbed me less.
Like SL said, if I were in serious physical danger I would understand, but I wasn't. I've explained it to people this way: If I'm about to collide with something and you can't warn me verbally in time, let me collide with it. The pain of the collision is less uncomfortable than the shock of being touched without warning. If I'm in serious danger of breaking bones or dying that's totally different. Do whatever you want.
Last night I described the situation to one of my friends, and he said that my behavior (trying to move the heavy box out of my way instead of walking around it) was very odd. He thinks that's why the guy touched me.
I'm in full agreement with post #5.
Cody's right on this one. It's a personal security issue. People talk about bodies and space, and I get that. But above it all, it's a personal security issue clear and simple. After your dismissing them in whatever manner you choose, check for your wallet. Just sayin'. This is how devices and other items come up missing, or unintended small contraband get planted if someone thinks they're going to be caught.
It does affect us blind people yes. But you and I and everyone should take the same security precautions we advise people to do in airports and shopping malls when dealing with a nefarious type rubbing and leaning in and such.
If you deal with it like a personal and domestic security issue, your bearing will be different and they will have a tougher time using the blind / disability thing. Only side effect I've seen from this? Some so-called well-meaning type is left stuttering like a two-stroke outboard motor with peanut butter jammed in the carburetor. They'll live. Unclog themselves and move on eventually, but live. So long as you take inventory of yourself and your possessions afterwards, including no unwanted adjuncts taking a free ride. Again, same advice given to sighted people in crowded situations where someone's getting a bit too grab-asstic. Treat this the same way you never hold the door to your apartment building open for someone you don't know; let them get out their own key.
This is one thing I wish I could get a straight rational answer about from sighted people. If they just start helping us without asking first or otherwise giving us the option to graciously refuse, and then we even politely reject their advances, then we are always ungrateful or rude, it's always us in the wrong. If good intentions outweigh any respect for boundaries or personal security, there are times I think if somebody mugged one of us and stole our money and got caught, they'd claim they were doing us a favor. And I think this is the big sticking point with blind/sighted relations in general. Every interaction is supposed to be seen by us as a great kindness, a big favor, no matter how much boundaries are violated, no matter how condescending the unsolicited advice is, no matter how backhanded the compliment, no matter what it said or done to us and no matter how we really feel about it, everything is charity.
I agree with Cody completely on this. Use some frickin' common sense already! We should be allowed to have our personal spaces as much respected as the average human being. The only difference is that we're blind. We're not allowed to mind our own business and make mistakes because our blindness magnifies everything. I got yelled at by some old bitch back when I lived in Manhattan because I could "trip someone with that cane, and if you trip me, I'll be goddamn mad!" And she proceeded to berate me about getting a dog, so I told her why don't you fuck off? Had every right to do it, but she acted as though I'd tried to murder her and told me she was "sick of you people!"
I’ll answer that question about sighted people.
What the blind don’t know is sighted people touch others the same.
If a guy saw a sighted lady about to run in to a newspaper box, he might reach out and try to stop her, because maybe she doesn’t see it?
In this case, she’s trying to move a box that was probably attached to the ground. Most are. It wasn’t heavy, it was attached, so helping her around it quickly was on his mind.
I would say it is a quick reaction. You see a blind person running in to something, or what your perceive as an obstacle, you just want to guide them around it. The most effecint method is to take them by the arm and do it.
I can understand how it might cause fear, but you are walking outside, so you should be awear of other around you I’d suppose?
I think if you relaxed, and didn’t mentally think of it as an affront, you’d do well.
No, a paper stand wasn’t all that dangerous, but to a sighted person, you running in to it might hurt.
You all say you’d not mind being pulled out of the way of a car or something, why? You don’t want to be touched, so I’d say as a sighted person, let them get hurt.
You can’t have it both ways. Either people are going to be decent and try to help, even if it is a bit off putting, or they need to leave you totally alone, and that means period.
Again, it is just a reaction to help, nothing more. Give that some thought.
I’m a blind person. If I notice something I can assist with, I do it.
Me and a friend were walking home from the store. She saw a man walking and he tripped over a post laying on the ground. She hurried over to help him get up, and to ask if he’d hit his head or anything.He was not blind. I think he’s got CP, but no matter, he tripped.
We both offered to call 911 for him as well, but he was okay.
Should we have just kept walking?
I've helped people put bags in a cart, or just whatever if I notice them struggling.
I'm blind. What's up with that?
I'm with BG, and whoever else said that people are really making mountains out of molehills here.
I used to be like some of the others who can't stand being touched, and would get mad about being grabbed, but given that that's the sort of response people receive more often than not, is it really any wonder people often consider blind people assholes? I think not.
the bottom line is, if you don't want sighted people grabbing you, find a way to make that absolutely clear to them, like perhaps wearing a sign that says, "don't touch; I bite."
of course I'm being faceascious with that statement,
but I said that to hopefully illustrate the fact that, believe it or not, people really do mean well when they grab someone.
so, why not just say, "thanks, I appreciate your trying to help, but I've got it," take the opportunity to ask them for directions, or tell them to have a good day?"
y'all should try it. you might come away having made someone smile, including yourself.
My only question is, why try to move the box? That's the first thing that stood out for me in the original post. That would look weird and alarming to anyone--sighted or blind--with a normal mental capacity. I wouldn't be moved to drag you away from it, though I'd probably try to stop you from moving the box? lol. Yeah, I agree, I don't like to be grabbed either; it could get disconcerting, and very scarry at times, especially if you're walking with a dog.
I disagree with Chelsea and Wayne that sighted people get grabbed as much. Nowhere near like we do. Maybe getting grabbed like that is not badly-intended, but it doesnt' mean we should be ok with it and disregard that it makes us feel unsettled and as if we're treated like second-class citizens. I'm not going to feel grateful for every sighted person's misstep just because they felt it was the right thing to do and because they had no idea otherwise.
I'm not going to scream at them either, but I find I'm not obligated to smile and be thankful that they took the time to "help" me physically. Sorry. I will assert myself in a firm yet diplomatic fashion in most cases, but if someone does grab me roughly and acts superior and I happen to throw a few choice words their way, well so be it.
But then again, I'm not going to try and move a newspaper stand out on a public sidewalk either, so...
chelslicious, I physically cannot do what your asking. Being grabbed: from now on I'll refer to it as being zapped since that's what it feels like. would you thank someone for zapping you? I'm outside; I'm already stressed and overwhelmed by all kinds of stimuli; I'm focusing all my energy on exactly one thing - first it's moving the object, and then it's getting to the place where I take the exam; and suddenly...ZAP! Honestly, would your reaction be, "thanks! That's just would I needed?" I don't think it would. When you're zapped enough times you start looking behind you and paying close attention to every little noise and footstep because you don't know when it's gonna happen again.
I get it all the time when I'm looking for the door in a building. Ugh.
I do understand what the OP is saying, and i personally hate being grabbed as well, but as a few here have pointed out, they are only trying to help. It is up to us therefore, to say to them "I'm happy to follow you; please don't grab me" or, "I'll take your arm" if they're taking you across a road or whatever.
As Chelsea pointed out, no wonder a lot (and I hear it over here too) of the general public say that blind people are rude; Unfortunately they stereotype so it is up to us to be polite.
I realize it's hard when one is stressed but come on, (and I'm not talking to the OP here so much), be a little bit grateful. It's sure better than being totally lost and no-one bothering to come and rescue you.
Why should I be grateful for so-called help that isn't helpful, isn't even done
with a moticum of respect for my person, and isn't asked for? I wouldn't be
grateful if my mother came over to my house and rearranged my entire spice
rack to fit her idea of what it should look like. I neither wanted her to do that,
invited her to do that, or needed her to do that. If I'd needed her to do that, I'd
have asked, and probably given her good instructions on exactly how to do it.
So why the hell should I be grateful?
Yes, just the other day I was walking out of a door, and someone grabbed me, thinking they were helping, but they were not. My response was to snatch my arm back and keep going. Of course now, they might not ever help me again, but in this situation,if they were trying to help, they could hav just moved over or something, not just grab me.
This back-and-forth just tells me that there has to be a balance between being the always grateful, always cheerful poor little blind boy or girl and the rude blind bitch or bastard everyone talks about. Both are stereotypes, and both piss me off. But the thing that really, really wrankles is that I've sometimes (well, more often than sometimes) felt that I have absolutely no right to express my independence and make my own decisions. In fact, sometimes it's like, how could you have the unmitigated gall to do it? And I'm not being rude! And if I am ultimately rude, like when someone is trying to mind my business for me and not leave me alone, I'm the one that gets the shit thrown at them? Sorry but no way I'm putting up with that. As my father used to say, if I'm gunna be hanged for a sheep, I might as well be hanged for a wolf.
I understand the independent deal, but this isn’t a question of independent, it is a question of people just trying to be decent.
Like you, they are probably a bit uptight as well, and if they see you about to pump your nose on the door frame, or it looks like it to them, the reaction is a quick rescue, and that sometimes is a bit grabby handed.
Do you understand they don’t know you won’t actually hurt your head, or trip over the step they plainly see in front of you?
Just like they assume you don’t know, you are assuming they do.
You are assuming that sighted people understand that getting close to something is only how you see it, not dangerous.
I’m not an uptight, nervous guy, so when it does happen, and it doesn’t happen very often to me, I don’t get excited, scared, or anything.
Most times I notice them before they touch me anyway, so I sort of feel them coming.
To the poster. If you are going to be operating in the public on a busy street, you are going to have to learn to relax, or you’ll be a nervous rex, and that’s not a good emotional state.
Even if you never get touched, you still have some nervousness you’ve posted.
Maybe you should get yourself another dog, or a sighted guide helper around the campus, so you can relax some.
No, I know you can do it, but if you are stressed daily while traveling, why deal with it. Soon it will take a toll on you.
Last, these people aren’t rearranging your house, they are just reacting to what they see might harm you, and trying to be decent.
So, don’t be grateful, but don’t bitch either, or get rude. Why?
When they walk away, and this isn’t a blind thing, they think, some people are rude and just uptight.
Maybe this is a state of the world.
You see people driving in cars giving each other the finger, and such thing. Why?
Is so important to be strong, I’m right, or whatever?
I tend to take Chelsea’s view. Smile, say thanks, but I’ve got it, and have a nice day.
Not only will you hopefully feel better, you’ll make someone else feel same. They’ll walk away thinking, well, that was a nice person.
Here's a question for you.
If you fall of say the train platform and hurt yourself and learn later there was 4 people standing right next to you that could have just reached out and stopped that from happening, but didn't, how would you feel?
Maybe they read one of these rants, or have a blind friend that told them these things, so they gritted teeth and just allowed you to fall?
Answer me that?
There's a difference between a shoulder tap or something less invasive, as Wayne is talking about, and someone trying to manhandle / pull you in a direction you never intended to go.
If you enter a security perimeter, one of the first things you will be asked is if you were jostled, pulled, or otherwise handled by someone. Because, again, this is when contraband gets stowed on your person without your knowledge.
Not likely to happen if someone tries to take your arm, and you refuse and pull away. But anyone would be suspect, who would grip someone trying to get away, and in that case that is how I personally handle it. This is not a case of Chelsea and others wanting to prove something about blind people and image: it's security. If a sympathetic bystander speaks up and says "oh that person was rude," or what have yu, I level the situation by keeping it about security, and sometimes the bystander gets an education that, hopefully, will keep themselves safe in a future jostling pushing situation.
It's like a crowd: You know the difference between general crowd jostling, and someone trying to push themselves in, rub up against you, or grab. Obviously there are levels to this. You see these people defending the blindness dogma situation where you should be all aceepting all the time? These are the same people who would figure out a way to blame you if, when jostled, you inherited a piece of contraband in the jacket pocket, say maybe a remote charge to an IED.
It's hard, because, I agree with Cody that in no way should people just assume it's ok to grab me, but then, I don't want to act like a bitch either.
Whether we like it or not we are walking representatives of a community, is that right, no, but it's how it is.
I don't want to tell someone to get their fucking hands off me, or something similar. And yeah, I know blind people who would do that. No, there is no excuse for them grabbing us, but why should we act rude.
I'd try to explain, perhaps forcefully depending on the situation, that I don't require that help. If they then get defensive after I've explained it, then the situation might change. But quite simply, I'd rather explain to someone that asking is always better. I just don't get a kick out of being rude to people as others do.
And I do think the intent is important here, not as an excuse for the action, but your reaction. Don't sit back and accept that people were helping you because you're a poor blind person but don't be a dick either. At the end of the day, if you can politely educate them they may take it on board and end up offering appropriate help to another blind person in the future.
Bottom line don't not say anything for fear of upsetting...but equally don't go out of your way to be offensive. That just makes you look like a prick, and honestly, there is just no need, as there was no need for them to grab in the first place. We are the most educated here as to what works best for blind people, why not actually use that opportunity for once, rather than bitching about how terrible sighted people are.
"If you fall of say the train platform and hurt yourself and learn later there was 4 people standing right next to you that could have just reached out and stopped that from happening, but didn't, how would you feel? ... Answer me that?"
I already have. In an earlier post I said that if I'm about to be seriously injured, people can do whatever they need to in order to prevent it.
"Do you understand they don’t know you won’t actually hurt your head, or trip over the step they plainly see in front of you?
Just like they assume you don’t know, you are assuming they do."
In most cases, yes, I am assuming that they know, because they can plainly see what's happening around them. Let's take a simple example: Say I'm walking toward a wall. I'm walking at a regular pace in pretty much a straight line, and they're aren't any other obstacles. Anyone watching this can see the way my cane is moving and very quickly predict that the cane will most likely hit the wall. Sighted people are supposed to be pretty good at predicting where a moving object is going to end up.
forereel, you also say that you're generally a relaxed person. You don't make it sound as if you choose to be relaxed, you just are. I didn't choose my temperament either. There are things I can do to make it easier to live with, but an unexpected touch for me will always be more likely to cause my throat to tighten up than a smile.
And what about doors? Impricator reminded me of a time when I was reaching for a door. The good thing about all this travel is that I have a much better sense of where things are in space, so my hand landed only a few inches from the handle. Unfortunately, my aim wasn't perfect, so I got zapped anyway. Why? Clearly there was no danger. Why does it have to be perfect?
Ok, there is a world of difference between someone grabbing you and you
responding by pulling away and saying, "Don't touch me" or "please don't touch
me", and you going off on someone. The first are normal responses. Just
because I say its unacceptable for someone to touch me, doesn't mean that I
scream at them and hack their hand off with a broadsword every time they do.
Just like, if someone pets my dog, I don't say, "Get your dirty mother fucking
hands off my dog you ignorant shit-stained sighty". I say, "don't touch my dog".
Very simple.
My biggest problem with this whole situation is the fact that they aren't doing
this out of cherity. The vast majority of people who will forcibly assist you are
not doing it because they want to be kind or generous. They do it because they
see you as helpless. Its patronizing. Its, "aw, look at the poor blind guy trying
to cross the street. He'll get hit by a car if I don't help him". That's why they
never ask if they can help. People who are being kind want to make sure they
do the right kind thing. So they will ask what it is you need done. The people in
the situations we're talking about here don't ask, they just act. And that is not
them trying to be helpful, its them treating you like a child. Nothing, or at least
few things, will make me want to knock your teeth out more than treating me
like I'm a child. Cuz I'm not, and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and
meekly accept it. I consider that a weakness, and honestly I find those blind
people that never stand up to it kind of sad and pathetic.
You did answer these questions, but here’s what I was driving at.
If you say and get the message across that you never want to be touched, or we have a public affairs announcement about it.
Now people know not to touch the blind.
When that happens no matter what, you don’t get touched. Maybe it is law.
So, now you’ve got your wish, but if you fall off that platform you wanted that help now, don’t you?
You can’t have it both ways.
Leo have pointed out something. What are we calling a grab here?
I just came back for the store as I write this. I was walking through the store to get to the customer service counter.
From my right side a lady simply reached out with both hands and put them on my arm and squeezed some to ask me what I needed.
I explained, so she then led me to get in line, but she pulled a bit. I told her oh, thanks, but I need to get over to the side, because I’m not needing the customer service, but to wait for a shopper.
She led me there.
Now, I was perfectly doing just fine, but she decided to assist.
That wasn’t exactly a tap on the shoulder, she was petting my arm. Probably feeling my leather jacket, but the point is, she put her hand on me.
Now and then I’ll be crossing a street, and I like to wait for a fresh light. Someone will be going my way and come along and take hold of my elbow and say come on we can cross. I permit it, no sweat.
Only once when I was young was I taken the wrong way. Made me laugh. Now it doesn’t happen, because I don’t move if there pulling the wrong direction.
I also don’t get mad. Why?
So, I guess I still stand on the fact that people don’t know.
This is not security, because I honestly don’t think they man handle you. If I’m wrong correct me in that.
Yes, sighted people can see what is going to happen. I was once one.
But here’s the thing. You are going to a wall at a pretty good pace. Depending on how you use your cane it might not look as if you’ll actually hit it with your cane first.
The reason why is you, if you are using the tap method, are swinging instead of using the cane straight out, so that looks as if you’ll probably hit whatever you are headed too.
When you think about people grabbing you, I think maybe think of the reasons instead of the offense, because there is no offense.
It was posted, you poor blind person, but that isn’t it at all. It is, let me help somebody. He/she’s blind, I can do something for someone today.
I think that way now, and again, I’m blind.
I am not a small girl either, so that might be why I never get grabbed, or feel as if I was.
I believe you know or can tell if you are being grabbed as an attack, and grabbed as an assist.
Cody touched on something:
Anyone intervening in a disaster or relief situation is responsible first to ask the person what they need. If they're not conscious, that is the only exception. The right thing to do is ask first. Of course, falling off the platform is another situation.
But Wayne, I would not want a person smaller than I am who is unfit, to grab me as I was falling off a platform. That would make two of us going down, and that poor person would needlessly suffer or needlessly die. I know that's hard to take for smaller people. But in any situation, you have to save yourself first.
Like you, the woman in the store would be not too troubling to me, but I am not going to be treated like a child either. Allowing people to do that is actually unsafe for you and for them.
Great instance of this:
I was picking up my daughter from grade school. This other mom was there at the bus stop, starting to talk, got all woozy and wonder that a blind guy was a father. She lost track of her son, who stepped in front of me and was headed straight for the curb and into oncoming traffic. I reached out and caught him and returned him to his mother, who was standing right there but babbling like a brook in a cavern about disability this and something else that which made no rational sense. I did speak up and I was quite short with her, only because she nearly endangered the safety of her own child. She was a bit sheepish after that.
That is what I mean by, it's not safe for you or for them / their dependents for you to allow them to treat you like a child. They lose their rational compass entirely when they fall into acting that way. It's like those people you see who, whenever there's a dog tied up outside or walking with its owner, will flop down on the sidewalk and make happy hominid cooing noises at it, regardless of the oncoming strollers, shopping carts, and other wheeled and legged passers-by.
wayne, saying that if we ask not to be touched we can't expect help if we're in
danger is just pure idiocy. A girl can ask that a guy not grab her ass without her
permission. That doesn't mean she's asking him not to catch her if she's falling
off a cliff. The two are nowhere near the same thing. No one is that illogical, or
at least no one I want helping me is that illogical.
As for your scenarios, you made a few mistakes. First, there is a reason
you're supposed to use proper sighted guide. It allows for body direction. That
is to say you can tell what a person is doing by their body motion, so you can
make turns and that kind of thing. Guiding you by your arm doesn't do that.
What you should have done is take her arm if you wanted help. You should have
taken control of the situation. You should not have just gone along with it as if
you had no choice.
Chelsea said:
"don't touch; I bite."
I want a t-shirt with that logo!
:)
Voyager, I can empathize with your tension with all the sounds and moving objects. I get very nervous with loud sounds and crowds. The reality is that sighted people don't know and even if they do know, it goes against instinct. Whether we like it or not, vision is so dominant for those who have it that it overruns logic. A friend of mine who actually works with visually impaired and blind people always warns me if there is something in my path even though I have my cane out and am in no danger. It absolutely makes me crazy. The cab drivers can't give me three freaking seconds to find the door handle, they have to give me directions as soon as I put my hand out. I've asked repeated but alas!
I get annoyed, I ask them not to do it, they don't get it. I move on unless of course it is a particularly bad day.
I'll never be as good a cane traveller as I'd like as I am so sensitive to all of this and I haven't found the key to dessensitizing myself. But the world around me isn't going to change. The sighted population needs to be educated, but on a level that is never likely to happen as there just aren't enough blind people and not only that, blind people are every bit as different from each other as sighted people.
I guess what it comes down to is that this is the world we live in and being angry all the time over things we can't change, at least on a large scale seems to be a waste.
Feel what you feel in the moment and by all means try to communicate that you wish to be asked if you want or need assistance rather than grabbed or pulled but try to find a way to let go of the anger and the tension as it will only harm yourself.
I hope you did okay on your exam after all the stress-sucks that you had to go in with all that running through your system.
This topic has made me think.
First, I wonder how many people actually walked on past you while you were trying to move a paper stand that was probably attached to the spot in some way?
Next, you all agree that you want to receive help if it looks like you are about to be hurt.
How can a sighted person tell you are not actually going to keep walking and step off the train platform until you do?
The natural reaction is to stop the action before it gets too much in an alarming state.
You are looking for a door, but maybe they can plainly see that someones is coming to open that door, and that door is going to hit you in the face if they don’t assist you.
You think you are grabbed for no reason, but you can’t see all the other things that might be happening around you. Could it not be possible they’ve waved at the person about to open the door and hit you? It might even have been them stepping up to go in the same door and not really noticing you until the last bit, so they just help you.
You all assume all sighted people are observant, and reasonable, and because they see, they can judge correctly. This is not the case.
A blind lady wrestling with a paper box surely requires some help, when she could be walking down the perfectly wide sidewalk.
You all have valid points, I can understand them, so I'm not here totally unaware.
But as the last poster pointed out, sometimes they just want to speed your progress. Why allow someone to be looking for the door handle they just about touched when you can direct them?
It is not treating you like a child, it is purely just trying to be helpful.
So, sure, you've got the right not to be touched, but when you choose it, you must also choose to struggle, and on some cases get hurt.
VH, you can order that shirt, or even sign you know.
Wayne, in some cases, its trying to be helpful, in others, its pure
condescension, there is no more viable alternative than that, which would
actually explain their actions. Here i'll speak truthfully. If someone is looking
down on me, i'd rather them not help me at all. Because 9 times in 10 they
really are not helping me much, or enough to justify dealing with their petty,
ignorant smothering. You guys apparently can look past the situation that in
many cases, you're being treated like a child. I can't. Because i'm not getting
enough out of the reaction to justify the degradation of my character. as has
been stated before, those who truly wish to help will communicate first. they
will not grab you, they will not man handle you. they may tap you, and while I
find that annoying, I can accept it, because they communicate. But most of the
people who really want to help, that are not looking down on you will
communicate first.
I don't have a problem with someone asking me if I need help, or what I want.
But if they grab me, and take me, they're assuming they know what I want to
do, where I want to go, that I want the help in the first place, etc. there is no
meaningful dialogue. these people are patronizing me. And the worst thing is,
that in most cases, I can't even calmly and politely communicate that I don't
need or want the help with out being rude. and while I don't mind being viewed
as rude, Its distressing to me that I can't exercise any autonomy over myself
with out being considered such. I don't get to make a choice. honestly, you
guys saying that we should just go along with this, are making the problem that
much worse. You are helping to establish a systemic expectation that it is OK to
take the choice out of my hands, because I am blind. I'd like to thank you for
that. Its a great thing to basically tell everyone to just conform for the good of
everyones feelings. Because in these situations, that's what it really comes
down to. those who are in it to help for the right reason don't help from a point
of selfishness, and thus me saying no isn't a problem. Where as those who help
either because they're looking down on us, or to get in their good deed for the
day have a huge problem with it, because they're not helping you exclusively
or mostly for your benefit. they want emotional validation that you are now
safe, or that they can make a difference in someones life. I shouldn't be
expected to validate these people, when they are not even attempting to really
help me properly. they just take control of the situation, if you let them, and
even withdrawing politely is enough to get you insulted, demeaned further, or
simply viewed as rude. On top of that, I don't feel I have an obligation to let
people help me, just because someone else may need that help in the future.
I'm going to come across as a cunt here by saying this, but that's not my
problem. Just because we're blind, that doesn't mean we're lacking in
individuality. I shouldn't have to let everyone and anyone help me, because
others need that help.
Lastly wayne. As someone with some sight, I can confirm some of what your
saying, but call other aspects of it in to question.
Yes, sighted people sometimes get grabbed, but its not nearly as frequent.
People are more willing to communicate with a sighted person on average,
assuming that a simple look out is enough information for them to process what
ever needs processing.
In addition, both people in the situation can read and respond to body
language, so they have one more avenue to communicate we don't. Because of
this, and because of the fact that the majority of sighted people consider blind
people to be less capable, and thus look down on them, people tend to deal with
the blind who need help like children. where as sighted people who need help
get treated like adults. Its a huge distinction and at least to me, someones
reasons for helping me matter just as much as the fact they're willing.
So, the TL:DR of my last section of text is this. sighted people do get help
sometimes, though it is less frequent and often more useful, less demeaning,
and more respectful than the help the blind receive. We shouldn't just be
expected to put up with that as part of being blind.
Years ago, when I took the bus to work, one of my other blind friends got a job at the factory where I worked. He asked me if he could tag along with me for a few trips until he learned the way. I was fine with this. One day while waiting for the buss, these two foreign women came up and grabbed my friend, telling him it was safe to cross the street. They took him across the street and then just sort of left him there. I asked him if he was gonna catch the bus with me, or if he'd rather be led off by the foreign ladies. They didn't bother me, (I figure it's probably because I had a guidedog, but they almost made my friend miss his bus, and then he would have been stranded. They had no idea what he wanted or needed. They never bothered to communicate with him. They just grabbed him and started walking. How many sighted people would stand for this?
In that case I can understand your view point.
But I don't think it goes to that extent in every case.
I personally have never been man handled as I've said, accept once when I was a child.
I don't think I'm any different from you all either, so that people don't do this to me.
As an adult, the couple times I've been actually grabbed was due to the persons uptightness, but otherwise I'm touched gently, and talked to.
Like today, she did put both her hands on me, but it was light. She only started to need my arm after she didn't get rebuffed, and I honestly think that was because she was feeling my jacket, not paying attenchen. Smile.
It is really soft leather, so feels good to squeeze.
I felt she was respectful however
It is possible my preceptions off, because I don't think about how people are thinking about me.
In that, I never think, ah, she/he is treating me like a child.
I have also declined help, and been left to do it as I saw fit. I've never been forced, so maybe that is another reason I don't take offense as the rest of you do.
Again, it is your right not to be touched, but some understanding is also in order I think.
Wayne, there is something you're not considering, and James said it
extremely well. If you're looking for a door, and haven't yet found the knob of
said door, it is equally helpful to say, "The knob is to your right", as it is to grab
your hand and put it on the knob. Worse though, is that in my experience, most
people will physically move you out of the way of the door and open it for you,
causing mass confusion for a few seconds because they always seem to want to
hold their arm up for you to walk under it. That one I have no explanation for.
But I digress.
My point is Wayne, you're accepting the last drastic measure as if its the only
possibility. There are several other options available to sighted people who wish
to be helpful. I get asked all the time if I need help. I usually say no thank you,
but I get asked. That doesn't bother me. Its people who assume that annoy me.
For example, I was walking to my favorite coffee shop today, but was forced to
pass it by a car that was driving by. I had to backtrack. A man came out into
the street and tried to grab the harness of my dog to tell me that I'd turned
around and was heading in the direction I'd come from. I'll repeat, this is the
exact motion I had planned to do, and had executed perfectly not five seconds
before. So, why should I accept that? Would he do that to a tourist who had
turned around to go in the other direction? Of course not. He only does it to me.
So why should I except being singled out?
I guess I not suggestion you need to accept this sort of treatment, I'm suggestion some understanding of why it happens.
Not all sighted people are thinking as you'd want.
Like the door, you are thinking they should suggest where the nob is, but to a sighted person it might seem faster and easier to not only open the door for you, but assist you through it.
I confess, I'd probably do that.
Sighted people are always opening doors for others, but in that case they can see that and the other sighted person won't run smack in to it when it is opened. If you just open a door for a blind person, and that door swingings out, they might keep walking.
Okay, that is not excuse, but a reason.
Now, in the street, they guy probably figured your dog messed up. Again, you are expecting seeing people to also be observant. He might not have even seen the reason you were out there, just you out there.
It is like, oh, damn, that blind guys in the street, let me get him out. Nothing more.
Seeing people are also uptight just like blind people. They are run by emotions too.
I've said I'm relaxed, so that is also a reason I don't get bothered as you all do.
For me, it is easy enough to stop someone from dragging me anyplace, and I don't have to be forceful to get it done. A gentle word normally works provided it happens. It just doesn't often.
The story of our lives, isn't it? Here are a few incidents which occurred. You tell me if the seeing person was so understanding. A friend and I were walking back to my house. I was a little ahead of him. His cane hit some bags on the sidewalk and some lady grabbed him saying let me help you and called ahead for me to wait. I said no thank you and she was like, "Some of them want to be independent." Now I don't know what my friend eventually said to her but she'd let go of him at the curb before we crossed. While we were crossing some car blew the horn at us and my friend cursed in Spanish and I laughed. I guess that lady heard me laughing and thought she was being insulted. "I'm trying to help the blind!" Then we went into a convenience store where she had just gone and heard her say, "I'm glad I got my 2 eyes." We weren't rude or disrespectful to her in any way. and if we were she would've damn well deserved it for being such a bitch to us. The other day I missed my stop on the bus and these 2 ladies offered to help us to the bus stop going the other way. The one walking with my boyfriend took his hand and gently guided him while her friend grabbed my dog's harness and even screamed at her for sniffing dragging her to come on. I suppose the way we get there isn't important as long as we get there. I hate that whole "Oh, I'm a boy scout," "doing my good deed for the day," I've even been told straight up, I don't know what you would've done if I wasn't here for you. I don't understand the people who feel like that after doing something so small. I guess they got their fix. Its the same way certain people may say, Oh those poor people who are beneath me (old people, black people, third world country residents) I'm gonna make a donation to the charity. Boy that felt great! I wash my hands of those scum now." I'm not even talking about a situation where I'm about to get turned into roadkill and someone grabs me, but on a quiet street on the walk light they grab then say some shit about doing their good deed and leave. If it mattered so much to them why don't they quit their job and turn into my Anne Sullivan for the rest of their lives?
I see that a lot of assumptions are being made about where sighted people are coming from, such as that they're out to get us.
how can you all be so certain that they don't provide this same kind of help to others, able-boddied or not?
I bet that those of you with this view haven't actually talked to them, though, to ask them why they do that sort of thing.
I'm almost certain that if you did, you'd find out that they genuinely wanna help someone they perceive as being in need, whether or not the person actually needs it.
as has been said, they can't possibly know whether help is needed, just as you all can't possibly know how they feel about helping others, unless you take the time to ask them, just as you wish everyone would ask what your preferences are.
believe it or not, most people, blind and sighted alike, don't walk around paying attention to what everyone around them is doing.
they're focused on getting to their destination, finding a place to change their baby's diaper, or any number of other things that are not about you, the pedestrian.
I'm a tiny woman, and never in my almost 27 years of life, have I ever experienced what many of you are referring to as being manhandled.
I walk with my head held high, I walk at a brisk pace, I look relaxed, cause I am relaxed, and I'm not paranoid about whether someone might grab me, or when a person will do so.
I say that as someone who used to be panicky and high-strung, and as someone who has realized that her life was made much harder than it is, now that my approach is totally different.
of course there will always be exceptions to the rule, where someone will wanna screw with another person's day.
however, I'd say that isn't the case all, or even most of the time.
this is not about proving anything to anyone, as some have suggested it is.
it's about knowing the difference between firmly asserting yourself/your needs, and realizing that copping an attitude is absolutely unnecessary for anyone, blind or sighted, to do, if they're trying to successfully accomplish something.
Then what can I say? You're lucky. Because it does happen. Most of the time, the vast majority of the time, I grant you it doesn't happen. I will say that it happened the most when I lived in Manhattan. It happened les when I lived in Minneapolis, and it happens much less frequently now that I'm back in central New York. In any case, I'm thinking that the majority of us are not saying that the sighties are out to get us. What we're saying is that you need to use some common sense. You don't just grab someone for what we perceive as no particular reason. And you don't say here, let me help you or here, it's this way without asking if you can help. Shouting at me to keep straight constantly when I'm trying to listen to what I'm doing and trying to pay attention to what's going on is a stresser, and I'm gunna bite back. As I perceive it, it's a matter of personal safety first. It's also a matter of personal dignity. If you grab me without saying a word, I have the absolute, unmitigated right to push you away or pull away from you. But if you ask if I need help, I'll be perfectly civil if you're civil to me. It's that simple.
Chelsea, your most recent post is spot-on, in my opinion.
I don't really feel I experience the fierce manhandling described here either. Perhaps because I stride at a confident pace with my guide dog - I'm not sure. I have been touched/guided or shouted at unnecessarily, but I don't recall ever being shoved toward something. Well, maybe if I was in immediate danger. Sometimes I accept help that I know I don't need because I know it expedites my trip, or for other selfish reasons (cute guy?) but generally I take advantage of those types of opportunities to educate.
In all sincerity though, to the original poster, this world we live in that is obviously dominated by sighted folks - and there is no problem with that - can be so, so tremendously frustrating. I totally get fed up sometimes too. Trust me, especially living in a busy city for the first time, I get real fuckin fed up sometimes. But it's best to just move on as soon as possible. Articulate as best you can in the moment, try to educate, but moreover just live your life. Fuck the haters, as the kids say these days.
Ok and a bit unrelated to the topic... Cody, really? Comparing petting your dog to fondling a woman? Girls are cute, but you don't get to go up to them and fondle them without being arrested, so why should anyone be allowed to pet your dog? That is sick and so disrespectful. So as a dog owner, I seriously love dogs, and I'm all about treating them well, and all that posh. But let's be real. Dogs don't process unwelcome petting the way humans - and especially girls - do. So that analogy is deeply disturbing to me. Of course you can't unwelcomely fondle a woman. And doing so could traumatize her for the rest of her life. Dogs are not traumatized by a rando petting them - by the wagging tail, I'd say they actually enjoy it, as obnoxious as it can be for the blind person. But anyway. Seriously dude. You demand respect as a blind person. Well, I demand respect as a woman. No hard feelings though.
I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle here, I will always explain what help I do/don't need, rather than just accepting it. Equally, if someone wants to guide me I explain to them that I would rather hold their arm.
Cody, I wasn't implying that you personally would be rude to people, but that I know a lot of blind people are. Yes, I get annoyed and frustrated, I don't want to be treated like a child. But I know some blind people that run their mouths off and ultimately just look like an ass for doing so.
thankfully this isn't something I experience often. Its something that i've
noticed happens less and less the more confident i've become in myself.
and yes, chelsea, you can't know peoples reasons for helping all the time, but a
lot of the time you can figure out someones real intent by their body language,
way of speaking, etc. these are the people that annoy me, because even at my
most polite they don't feel satisfied unless they've rendered aid, needed or not.
Its not even about what the person wants, its about them being right.
Exactly, you can tell what a person's intentions were by how they go about
doing it. A person genuinely wishing to help usually says excuse me, do you
need some help, or something like that. They don't just grab you, because
people don't just grab other people. They grab children and those they see as
low and pathetic and deserving of pity. That's how a lot of them treat us, at
least in my experience.
I do have to wonder though, and Holly I'm afraid I can't really include you in
this, but I wonder if the experience is different here in the south than it is other
places. Most of the blind people I know who are really overwhelmed by this kind
of thing live in the south. And there is certainly a different mindset here than
anywhere else I've lived. But, I don't know. Just a thought.
And sarah, you're right, I apologize, that analogy was poorly thought out and
crass. I shouldn't have used such a sensitive subject as molestation to compare
to guide dog distractions. That was short sighted of me.
It is interesting to hear different points of view on this issue. Personally, I believe unless the person knows me or I am in some kind of immediate danger that it is not acceptable for a complete stranger to grab any part of my body without seeking my permission first. I believe this is a general principle of personal safety. As someone who also struggles with balance issues in addition to being blind, I consider a stranger unexpectedly grabbing me to be an issue of my own personal safety. When someone unexpectedly grabs me, it throws off my balance, and it actually takes me longer to do what the sighted person is trying to get me to do.
I usually tell the person to please let go of me, or something along these lines. However, even when I am polite, and there is no immediate danger, the person always seems perplexed by my response. If I am boarding a city bus, and I am in the process of grabbing the handrail to step onto the bus, there is absolutely no reason for someone to grab my arm without seeking my permission first. There is also no need for some strange man to come up behind me and put his arms around me to guide me around a stationary poll that I found with my cane and was in the process of walking around when he suddenly grabbed a hold of me. This one really freaked me out, and yet the man could not see how his behavior was totally inappropriate.
If this kind of behavior is not acceptable among sighted people, then why should I be willing to accept it just because I happen to be blind? And why should I be willing to accept strange men suddenly grabbing me without seeking my permission first when this behavior is generally not acceptable among sighted people? I should not have to jeopardize my own personal safety simply to accommodate someone who feels the need to assume I need some kind of assistance without asking me first.
I have balance issues as well, and I'm not in a huff cause I sometimes get thrown off balance by a person, or a dog that accidentally knocks me over, or whatever.
I may need help getting back up, sometimes, but guess what, stuff happens, you get back up; quite literally, in this case.
people honestly don't know where our head may be at, in situations like this, as I and others are saying.
all they're focused on is what they're perceiving, as well as wanting to help someone.
however, with outlooks like the majority of people here, I'd say someone would be well within their right to assault you all, if you accidentally stuck your cane between someone's legs, or were walking so fast that you accidentally ran into them.
never mind the fact that you didn't actually mean anything by it and were just trying to get to your destination, when they were very rudely standing in your way.
so, I wholeheartedly agree with whoever it was that said people can't have their cake and eat it too.
either people want help, or they don't, but insisting that others be there to help only when they're in danger, is not right.
Ok, call me an ass or a rude blind bitch... whatever it is you want to call me, feel free.
But guess what?
The people from whom I want any help in the first place will be those who are considerate of me, of what my preferences might be. I'll gladly accept help from someone who understands that I'm a human. From whom I can sense respect toward me on a normal, general human level.
If I'm walking on my way, my head is wherever it is, and the sighted person is going about their business, doing whatever it is they'd set out to do, I don't find I can appreciate them stopping for a nanosecond to presume I need help and then promptly force it onto me.
If they're not in the right headspace to consider who I might be other than that unfortunate blind person about to collide with the door, I'd rather them walk by and let me be. I'd rather them carry on grocery shopping, or changing their baby or whatever it is their doing. If they don't have the decency not to grab my arm or to whirl me around somewhere without so much as a hello, do you need help, then yeah, just carry on, I say. I might bump into a poll or two -- probably not but it's possible -- but at least that bump on my head I would have scored with dignity.
You're right Chelsea, most people are just trying to be helpful. And perhaps most people's intentions are good; I think you're missing the point here. We're not trying to say that this type of help is meant to be malicious. It's invasive. That's what we're saying. And help that is invasive is not welcome and certainly not considerate. Therefore, it is not really help at all.
I'm certain that if my mom came to my house and rearranged everything on me, she'd have done it in the best of intentions. Maybe to her it looked like my stuff was disorganized. Maybe she thought I'd love a little surprise. But I'm not going to let it go just because her intentions were good. I'm going to explain that I did not appreciate being invaded upon I'll have enough tact and tell her that I know her intentions were good, but I'll make it clear that I would rather her not do something like that before clearing it with me.
It's my house afterall. My stuff. I live there; so I should have a say in how my stuff is arranged. Right?
Similarly, it's my body, my person. I should have control over who touches it and when. I shouldn't be ok with a total stranger taking that control away from me just because they assumed I needed them to or because they wanted to have mercy upon me.
So yes, maybe well-intended, but still unwelcome. Sorry.
And I'm not one to flip out and start dropping fuck you's everywhere when this sort of thing happens to me. I am firm and assertive though; I can be diplomatic and still the message is that I mean it. And I'm entitled to that right, in my opinion. I should be able to have a say over who gets that close to me.
And over how my furnature is arranged for that matter.
My take on it is: if you're not including me and I'm still conscious and capable to make decisions about myself, you're not helping. Period. And come on. That scenario with the cane wasn't very convincing because the sighted person sees where they are and where I am going. I don't see who's in front of me when my cane accidentally hits them between the legs. Their "help" is never accidentally. It's not premeditated either, a lot of the time, but it's not accidental.
So no. Thanks but no thanks. lol.
Bernadetta stole my thunder. Dammit.
And mine too. Heavy sigh of discontent. Oh well. Carry on then.
I agree with Bernadetta's point essentially, saying it's not ok, and you're entitled to be angry but about having tact. My issue is with the people that flip out when touched, yes, I feel like doing that, but I guess i've been brought up not to needlessly be rude to people. If those people refuse to go with my explanation, then yeah I might be rude. I think James posted about such people, who no matter what you say don't get it. And those people, yes, sometimes I will be abrupt with them, if I explain to someone that I didn't like their actions and they take it graciously then to me that's a success. I try to assess the method i'm going to go about dealing with them by their initial response to my explanation, much the same as I do with people who touch my dog.
I hate that, by the way, the dog touching. But if I say that you can't touch a guide dog and explain why, and the person says sorry in a genuine way and then asks me questions or something, that's ok, not that they did it, but that they're accepting that I have a right to correct them. But if they say things like "well, I was just being friendly", or "you could just let people you know", then they don't deserve my respect.
I believe there are people who grab us out of pity or whatever, and they will be the ones who don't accept our explanations, and I also think there are those who do it because they aren't using common sense. And once this is pointed out they actually listen to what you're trying to say. So no, touching, grabbing, yelling directions at us isn't ok, but sometimes there are people we can educate.
Should we have to? No, of course we shouldn't. And if you choose not to well then that's your call, but the way I see it is people are stupid when it comes to disabilities, any disability. And often, when you explain why their way of thinking is completely crazy they will actually come around, because sometimes they just never thought of what to us is the obvious. Not everyone is like that, but as I said, the ones who no matter what you say dismiss you, they are the real assholes.
I have said I understand, but you also must give some slack.
Have you thought about how a sighted person can't even conceive of how it is to be blind? It freak them out, and does.
The other side of this coin, are the people that won't touch you ever because there afraid your blindness will jump on them.
That's crazy right? But, believe it, or not, people think that.
I guess I've taken the view, I'm blind, and that is going to cause some folks to react in odd ways. I'm relaxed too, so I don't mind.
I don't actually try to educate, I am much like the poster who takes help even when I don't even need it.
It gives me pleasure to give somebody there good deed for the day. Call that strange, but there it is.
Maybe that is the thing pointed out. If you look confident, this sort of grabbing doesn't happen often.
I do again see others side, but I guess you'd be better served to not take these situations as a personal battle, or disrespect. People don't know. They simply don't.
What isn't an emergency to you, like you and your dog in the street, looks like one. It just does.
Well, wayne, I don't feel like that. I will try and explain, though in a nice way first, because if someone genuinly does like helping people, anyone, then they will listen to my explanation, and next time they will be able to offer appropriate assistance. I'm not about crushing people's dreams and feelings here, but I think if someone is genuine then they would actually want to know how to help people propperly, rather than working off their limited knowledge. And if, even though I am the blind person here, they get angry when I try to explain, I probably don't want help from someone like that, because if they think they know what I need better than I do, they may actually end up endangering me. That's another reason why I try to speak to people who get hold of me, because it's much easier for me to tell whether they would actually put me in a worse situation by speaking to them. It helps me get a sense of who they are, and hopefully, they will respond in a good way and listen to what I have to say, if not, I wouldn't take their assistance.
Yeah, there are times when I might accept help that I don't strictly need, if for example I need to get a train, I might ask someone who works their to help me find the right platform, if I have 2 minutes to get there and there are 15 platforms and I don't know the station then it makes sense. I could wander around looking, and eventually find it, but most likely I wouldn't with that time limit. But, that is different to just letting someone grab me and go along with it. Hopefully, by speaking to them and explaining what help I do and don't need then they will be better able to assist others in the future.
I keep hearing of two kinds of reactions: flipping out and dropping F-bombs or stopping to educate. I don't really care for either one.
When it happens, the only thing I want is for it to stop. I'm uncomfortable at a visceral level long before I ever have time to think about how the other person is treating me like a child. I normally will just pull away and maybe try to give a word or two of explanation, although speaking isn't always easy for me when it's happening. The anger often doesn't show up until later, when I've had time to process what has happened. I probably won't swear at them, but I have no interest in stopping to educate, either. There are times and places where I like interacting with people and answering questions, but when I'm walking some place it generally isn't one of those times. I want minimal human interaction so I can focus on what I'm doing... and maybe also because I just want to be left alone. Don't all humans sometimes wish to be left alone? Don't all humans sometimes get tired after class and want to go straight home? Is it rude if I don't always want to start a conversation with someone I don't know?
I completely agree with this last post. I honestly do not understand what is so rude and disrespectful about a simple request to please let go of me. I also do not understand why I cannot expect to be treated in the same manner as everyone else just because I happen to be blind. I am still a person, and I still deserve to be treated with kindness and respect. Having some strange man suddenly grabbing me for no good reason is neither a sign of kindness or respect. A sighted woman would never tolerate a strange man suddenly grabbing her for no good reason, so why should I be willing to accept this behavior just because I happen to be blind?
thank you, Wayne, for your last post.
clearly, people are missing the point that you and I are trying to make here, which is that it often isn't about proving anything to anyone, but about giving someone an opportunity to make themselves feel good, through knowing they've helped another human being.
I don't think it's my responsibility to be a walking billboard, so to speak, where educating people is concerned.
I don't think most people really care about how we do things differently, given the disability(s) that we have, just as we don't concern ourselves with their goings on, when there isn't a need to do so.
another thing is, what one person considers helpful, another will likely feel differently about.
so, are you all saying that everyone who comes into contact with a sighted person who is trying to help, should be required to make their preferences known to that sighted person?
or, are you all suggesting that sighted people should automatically know the answers, just as you probably claim to know what's going on inside their heads?
neither option would actually work, but being nice won't harm a soul.
What I personally am saying is that I don’t always have the time to stop and educate someone or be as well-mannered as the potential helper, whatever his/her motives, might like me to be. I’m a rather matter-of-fact kind of person most of the time and rather solitary by nature; sometimes I do have the tendency to be a crab. I don’t drop the F-bomb or flip out on people, but I am forceful when I think I need to be, and I’m not all sweetness and light just because someone wants to do their good deed of the day. I don’t play that. When they ask whether or not I need help, I’m very polite. When someone asks me where I’m going, I’m a little less polite but generally respond that I’m going for a walk. This is my matter-of-fact nature coming out. It’s not as polite as telling someone I’m going to this or that restaurant or just going to work, but they don’t need to know where I’m going anyway, and I’m not flipping out on them. If they grab onto me without saying anything to me, or if they’re being a dipstick about how they’re going about things, I often don’t have the time or wanna take the time to educate. I react first. If I think I need to say something, I do. If I need to pull away because I know what the hell I’m doing and they didn’t ask if they could help, I do it. And by the way, I don’t think it really matters how confident you are. I’m very confident in my mobility and in my walk. But my experience is that people see the cane first. That signifies blindness, and blindness is bad. It signifies that I need help no matter how confident I seem. And also by the way, it’s sometimes been my experience that the more confident you are, the more likely you are to be accused of faking your blindness. Nobody could be that good and not be able to see, after all. I hope it happens again because the next asshole that does that to me, I’m taking out my eye and asking how many eyes am I holding up, dickhead?
I was all about agreeing with you Chelsea, but that last post was a little disconcerting to me. You said you aren't for being a billboard for educating, so I take that to mean you don't feel responsible for educating someone about proper guiding technique when they do something inappropriate/unhelpful in attempts to help you. But you think it's proper that blind people accept help from sighted people, because the sighted person is trying to get in their good deed of the day? So we're supposed to be their good deeds? So I accept help for silly reasons too, like I said before, maybe he's a cute guy, or even maybe she's a nice girl who I had wanted to talk to before but hadn't had an opportunity, and I have actually made friends this way. But I don't accept help because I want someone to feel good about him or herself for the rest of the day. Hell no. They should want to help me, not because they pity me. And I know that isn't the case. I know we are pitiable people, and that often people do help us for some feel good feeling, that has nothing to do with us beyond the fact that we're disabled. But accepting help for that reason, while maybe realistic in some ways, also is accepting that we are to be pitied, and to be treated as lesser, and I just am so not down with that. And even when I do accept help I don't need, I try to strike up intelligent conversation, or prove myself in other ways. I think it's bullshit that we should have to prove ourselves ever, but in my opinion it's an unavoidable fact, so I do it.
I could totally be misunderstanding. As I said, I agreed with everything until that point.
Exactly, if someone isn't helping me because they want to help me, but helping
me because they feel the need to get in there good deed for the day, they can
go fuck themselves because I fucking hate these kind of people. Are not worthy
of respect, because what they're attempting to do is completely selfish. They're
not even really providing you any benefit at this point, because it's all about
what they want, their desires, their needs, and their expectations. When
someone is so so we focused on themselves. Why should I be expected to assist
them? As I've said before, someone's intentions matter just as much to me as
their actions, if not more. Just because I'm blind, my function is not to make
someone feel good, who is a self-centered asshole.
Cody, with the traveling and living in as many parts of the country as I have, I
can save the attitude about this is much worse in the south.
Just to reiterate, in these situations I'm generally polite. Even though I
absolutely despise being used by people for their selfish ends, I know treating
them as they should be treated will gain me nothing. they Don't wish you
understand how I feel about the situation, they don't even wish to really
understand what help I need. As a result attempting to really communicate with
them is not productive, rewarding, or worthwhile. And nothing they can offer
me is worth being viewed as a charity case. If someone actually takes
appropriate steps, and has an attitude that would tell me they genuinely want
to help, and our focus on actually doing the right thing, it's a completely
different story. Though as it happens, these are usually not the type of people
that she was to reach out.
Ok, since chelsea and wayne still don't seem to be able to understand what
we're saying, let me rephrase it slightly. Lets remove blind and sighted from the
situation. Lets remove girl and guy from the situation. Lets remove helping and
not helping from the situation. We are then left with a very simple fact. You
should not grab people without their permission. Its a no no. Don't do it. Don't
grab people, don't touch them in their no no square. Just don't do it. Plain and
simple.
So now, if we add all those factors back in, we can reconstruct the situation.
Should a guy grab a girl? No. Should a girl grab a guy? No. Should a sighted
person grab a blind person? No. Should a blind person grab a sighted person?
Come on, say it with me, No!
Now, I'm sure many of you went, but wait Cody, isn't sighted guide grabbing
someone's arm? Doesn't that break your rule? Well no disembodied person I
made up for the sake of argument, it doesn't. Because sighted guide includes
one element that all the so-called helpful situations we've been complaining
about for fifty-eight board posts lack. Its a simple little word called consent. I'll
illustrate.
Lets say Sarah is walking down the street, sorry sarah, I'm using you cuz you
pointed this scenario out. So, sarah is strolling along with her adorable little
puppy, swingin' her hips, splittin' up a bag of potato chips, whatever Sarah does
while she's strolling. Suddenly, a guy walks past Sarah, and sarah notices that
he's wearing Bang by Mark Jacobs; which if you don't know, is an incredibly
sexy cologne, take my word for it. So, sarah says to herself, "I'd like to get to
know this guy with his impecable taste in designer fragrances". So she grabs his
arm and starts strolling along with him. sarah has committed a no-no. she's
grabbed another person without his or her consent, hot cologne
notwithstanding.
Now, if Sarah had said, "hey, I'm Sarah, want to walk with me? I like your
cologne," and the man had said, "Sure, can I have a potato chip?" That would
have been all hunky dory. But that ain't the situation.
So, if we can agree that people should not grab other people without consent,
why should we allow sighted people to break that rule simply because they want
to help? Is it the helping? No, cuz they could help while still getting our consent.
Is it that they want a good deed? No, for the same reason. Is it that we're
helpless or responsible for educating people? No, cuz that still requires consent.
So, why is it ok for people to grab other people in the name of helpfulness?
Exactly fucking correct.
I love that post cody.
Spot on. Don't see what more there is to say.
I'd love to see the rebuttal to this. *Snigger snigger* lol.
I'd do it too, but this is a great discussion, so I'll not be wsilly.
Cody, I love your post, but what I'm trying to say is that due to us being different, we need a bit more relaxed adittude on this situation.
You don't need to exactly educate each and everytime, this isn't our job, but when you are grabbed, you don't need to take it so personally.
It has been pointed out that you have a voice, so saying please let go, I'm okay if fine, but getting totally bent out of shope just seems extreme to me.
Yes, I know, everyones reacts differently, but I honestly don't believe sighted people are thinking about all the child and such things you think they are. I think they are just trying to be helpful.
Fine, it's clutz, but there you have ot.
On the good deed, I am saying sometimes you will make a person feel good when you allow them to help you, not that you are the giver of good feelsings when you are out and about. That isn't your job either, but it happens that this make people emotionally feel good. If you got some time, why not?
Sighted people do not understand being blind, and I think if you all put that in the picture with your rights to not be touched, and try to understand it a bit, you'll not be so put out.
I see. I see a blind person walking to the edge of the platform. I ask do they need help. They say no. They keep walking and I think if they keep going that way there going to walk off the edge.
I tell them that. That brings up the hackles "I damn well know where I'm at. Don't treat me like a child."
You might not say it that way, but you get the idea.
What does that person do. You don't want them to assist, because you just said so, but you walk right off. They can't grab you remember? Try to remember, just because a person can see doesn't mean they are good at assessing. I think you'd all do well to add that in your gripe.
Okay live well.
So what you're saying Wayne is that because we're different, we have to give
up our human rights to our body? Because we don't have the ability to see
we're somehow second class citizens who should just sit meekly by while we
allow people to invade our personal space whenever they wish to just so they
can feel better about themselves? Are there any other people who are different
you think should just sit meekly by and allow prejudicial treatment for the sake
of people's feelings, or are you only prejudiced against blind people? Cuz that's
basically what you're saying here. We're different, so we shouldn't expect equal
treatment as citizens. Granted, its probably something minor, but why would
you ever think we should have to give up our rights just because we're
different. Would you allow someone to say that sometimes you should just drink
from other water fountains to make white people feel better about themselves?
Of course you wouldn't, so why is racism not ok, but this little bit of bigotry is
fine? Cuz that's what that is Wayne, by saying that we're different, so we should
accept poor treatment, is bigotry.
In this case you know you aren't bing asked to drink from another water fountain.
But, yes, in a way, I'm saying we as blind persons need to relax and try to see the other side.
This isn't sitting around meekly , this is lowering your stress levels.
The poster that started this board has a difficult enough time traveling it seems. If someone tries to help her, she'll even get bent worse, due to fear, anger, or whatever.
Why?
Lets move back to the water fountain. I am a black man, and for whatever reason, people get nervous around me just because I walk close to them.
I made a poor man with a walker jump and squill in a hallway the other day. It was just him and I.
I patiently explain I wasn't going to hurt him, and told him he was okay.
Was that so difficult?
"Oh, that f*cking with man? He know better. Every black man walking by him is not a ganster. I'm educated, and all, and live better then he does. Who is he getting off acting scared of me?"
Get the idea?
Another one.
Some years back I was crossing the street with a bunch of people. I pumped the lady next to me a bit with my elbow, because we were in like a crowd.
She had a really big purse and she started screaming about how I'd juswt taken her purse. .
If I'd lifted it, she'd have fallen over, it was so big.
I honestly don't think she'd have had a fit like that if I wasn't "different." Smile.
That is literally the most terrifying thing I've ever read on these boards. Have
you never heard of Sambo Wayne? sambo is bad. Don't be sambo.
I get wayne's point about not having to go off at anyone, and I don't think most of us do. From what I've read here, most people seem to say they dislike it intensely, but equally gain nothing from being rude to people. But there isn't just 2 options, being rude and sitting back and accepting it. Yes, I understand that many sighted people don't mean to be patronising, but they are. And so by politely explaining my situation I do the following:
A. Get it across that I don't require assistance at this time, or
B. That yes, I would like some help, but this isn't the best way to go about it.
C. That grabbing a person is not only an invasion of personal space, something I know they probably didn't think about, but also very distracting if you are on a route that is perhaps complex, and you need to concentrate.
By doing so I make things easier for everyone. And if that person gets angry with me then I definitely won't be taking their help because they have no respect for the fact that I'm able to make my own decisions.
Yes, I'm sure many people have good intentions, but parents who shelter their blind kids have good intentions...but do most of us think it's right, or excusable? Nope, many people here would argue that could be solved by showing parents a better way of handling the situation.
I'm not sure if it's a perfect comparison, but I'm sure you understand. I don't want to get angry because many people probably do mean well, but equally I'd rather explain to them what I want and need as it's much easier going forwards.
Exactly Holly. You don't have to scream at them and break their ribs with your
elbow. But pulling away and explaining that you don't want to be grabbed is
perfectly acceptable.
My problem, at least in the past, is that I've pulled away and gone on my way so fast that I just don't explain myself. My first instinct, for instance, is just to get across the street before the light changes, especially when I know parallel traffic has just started and I want to get to where I'm going. On the one hand I can see how it might seem rude, but on the other hand, I might have places to go. Besides, I react so instantaneously to the unwanted touching that it's the only thing I'm focusing on, not their feelings. I don't scream at them or hit them or anything stupid like that unless they really do something stupid. Instead, most of the time I try to ignore them. Like I said, I can be a bit of a crab sometimes.
I think I've figured out part of this social code. I was in error. We're supposed to be grateful for their gesture, that they used all that effort and energy and went completely against their nature to *try* or *strive* to *attempt* to be nice. It's not about the help, it's about the good intentions behind the help. And oh, by the way, as for permission to touch us and so forth, apparently according to this social code we're just supposed to understand, the good intentions are the permission. As long as the giver of the gesture feels they are right in what they do, the feelings of the person being gestured to are irrelevant as are their needs. This is the contract we sign without reading or signing a contract. So what sightie wants is an E for effort, to be told they are a little bit good after all, and not evil sinners, um, or something. But maybe I'm wrong, too. Sheesh, earthlings puzzle me.
Vh, your comment about vision overwhelming logic reminded me of "The Country of the Blind" by H. G. Wells. An explorer has been stranded with these blind people and has fallen in love with a lady, but in order for her father to agree to the marriage the explorer must have his eyes removed. The doctors say that he speaks nonsense because his eyes are enlarged, they flutter and move all the time and drive him to distraction, and he won't be mentally well until they're gone. I'm not suggesting removing anyone's eyes is a good idea, but vision does seem to cause strange behavior.
You're totally right about letting go of the anger; I bet that guy (whoever he was) isn't thinking about it anymore. It is very disappointing though. When I think about the things that would improve my life and make me happier, I don't think of winning the lottery - I think of stuff like this. If people didn't sneak up on me and startle me so much, then my life would simply be better. It also saddens me to think about how I rejected almost all human touch for years, because it was so strongly associated with these uncomfortable incidents. But they're not gonna stop, are they?
At least it sounds like I'm not the only one on here who finds the world so overwhelming. Maybe I just don't belong on a campus this large. I'll have to get my degree and then go live in a cave somewhere.
I actually made an A on my exam, thanks for asking.
All I will now say on this matter is, you continue being rude to sighted people Cody and others, and hope that you will get generally lost one day and no-one will come to your aid. May you walk around for the rest of the day in thunder and rain.
Sorry but honestly. I do take your point about having rights as a person to not be touched; I truly get that but I say again, which would you rather? If I get grabbed when I don't need help, I simply pull my arm away and say "thanks but I'm OK". How easy is that? wow, talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill some people! Lol
Sorry, my travel skills are excellent, so this is extremely unlikely. The fact you'd
wish ill on me, when I don't treat these people badly, for inconveniencing me,
speaks a lot more about you, than I, it would appear.
Well honestly Rachel, I'd rather be lost. Wanna know why? Because I can then ask for help on my own terms. I've always been taught, even by mobility instructors, that if I'm lost, I shouldn't wait around for someone to rescue me; I should try to think calmly and on my feet, that is, to act and seek for help. Simply put, if I'm lost, I'd much rather go up to someone if I hear their footsteps near by, or wave them over, and ask, hey can you please tell me where I am in relation to so and so? Also, you can always go into a business establishment if you're walking in a civilized area and you get lost. I've done that several times when I was in Boston and got a little mixed up; not a problem, and usually a very safe route. If you're walking in a wooded area or somewhere where you won't find a way to get help if you're unfamilia r with an area, than shame on you for not preparing by walking with a friend or something like that. lol.
But honestly. That bit about wishing for help and not getting it if you're lost is a bit moot. Because if you're a well-trained blind person, you're not just going to stand there and bumble and fumble, and maybe even mumble till some heroic sighted person grabs you by the arm and saves you. Yayyyy!!!!
Another point I'd like to make is that especially if you're lost, being grabbed like that is dangerous, even if well-intended. Think about it: if you're lost, you're more volnurable. You don't know where you are. Why in the world would you want someone taking you somewhere without telling you where you are first and how you're going to get where you're trying to go. If you're lost, you are way more susseptible to being taken somewhere against your will. And worse, being even way more turned around than you were in the first place. Didn't you all learn in kindergarten? You're not supposed to let a stranger grab you and walk off with you? lol.
come on people. let's not play the poor me, I'm blind game. If you're lost, you better be resourceful enough to seek out help on your own rather than to hope it will come to you. then, at least, you get help on your own terms. Again.
Well said Bernadetta, and let me add a few things if I may. First of all, we
have these little devices called phones now. Most of them have what is known
as a GPS, and those of us who are smart have learned to put a little program on
our phone that can tell us where we are and where we might wish to go. The
really smart among us have learned to use a compass, so if we get turned
around, we can find out which direction we need to head in to get where we
won't be lost anymore. Its called navigational skills, and they're learnable, so
don't even try to give me that tired "well I'm just not good at spacial
recognition" bullshit.
second, if, in the highly unlikely event I get lost, I can stop a passing person
and ask them, very politely and without grabbing them I might add, "excuse
me, could you tell me how to get to such and such a place?" Now sure, its
possible that the person I stop might be the same person that grabbed me two
weeks ago and they'll still carry a sore spot, but in a city that sees traffic of
eight million people a year, in a state with several hundred million people
passing through it, in a country with a steady population of over 350 million,
plus whatever immigrants or tourists there might be, I highly doubt that's going
to happen. And in the hugely unlikely event that it does, I can then stop another
person and ask them the same question until I find someone who is willing to
assist me in the way that I require.
Which is point three, I don't stop someone and ask them, "Excuse me, could
you please assault me and then forcibly guide me where you irroniously
presume I need to go". Because that question would be stupid as hell. I ask
them to guide or direct me to the place I actually need to go, and I assist them
by indicating the best manner in which to assist me.
So on several levels, your idea that not allowing sighted people to brusquely
assault me in the manner they deem correct so that they can feel some warm
fuzzies over helping a poor blind person is so astoundingly stupid that it defies
my not insubstantial ability to put proper grammar to its description. You might
try putting some basic thought into your arguments next time. It will make me
laugh at you considerably less, and value your suporific opinions slightly more.
Though, in all honesty, judging by this display, I'm not holding my breath.
What James and Cody have said is right. Moving away from my initial discussion of how to handle people grabbing you, there are also many ways you can handle being lost.
When I was in school I had to get this bus home, the busses here don't talk, and my stop is one of many on a straight road. Now, in the UK we don't have a block system, so I couldn't count intersections or anything like that. I had to do a couple of things, first, I'd ask the driver to let me know when we reached my stop. But I knew better than to rely on that, so I have an app on my phone and I marked my home as a favourite. I knew when we were a certain distance away from that marked favourite, my stop would either be the next, or the one after, they are very close together. So then i'd ask someone who was on the bus to let me know when we got there, there are always lots of older people, the majority of which know the area very well and are quite happy to let me know.
I only learnt to do that though by making a mistake once. I didn't used to use that app on the busses as I'd never thought of doing so, and once a driver told me it was my stop. It wasn't, we were some distance away. It's a residential area, so not a location I'd know the route. I began walking, and checking how far away I was from my home using my phone, I found the distance increased, so I turned and went the other way. I was using gps apps to tell me street names, and I found the main road that runs all the way from town to a village passed mine. So I carried walking down that. There are some really weird crossings though, and because the streets are close, it doesn't always show on the apps. It's also a quiet area, but I just kept listening for people. And when I came across someone I asked them what the next crossing was. And so I figured it out that way, until I got to the bus stop I should have actually got off the bus at.
So, even in a situation where you don't really know where you are there's things you can do, and actually, by doing these things, you end up firstly getting to your destination quicker than if you just stood on a quiet street waiting and second learning some valuable things. I wouldn't have thought to use that app as a guide to knowing when my stop on the bus was if it hadn't happened, and I hadn't had to use my own skills to get home.
So yeah, there are times when we need help, but that should be help we politely ask for. It's not ok for us to demand help, and equally it's not ok for it to be forced upon us. There are ways of handling both situations. Personally, I find communicating and trying not to get angry is the best way for me, because if I got mad I would actually concentrate even less on my surroundings.
Yes Holly and Cody; very well said. Whatever happened to resourcefulness? Do we really have to rely on someone else's good will to succeed and progress in this world, both literally and figuratively? Just because we're blind? No. come on. No thank you.
No, but Bernadetta, they get warm fuzzies from assaulting us. Don't you want
to give sighted people warm fuzzies? I mean come on. You're a pretty girl, I'm
sure they'd get extra warm fuzzies from helpin you. In fact, you should probably
just abandon your cane altogether. Just practice your helpless blind girl look and
you'll give hundreds of people a day the warm fuzzies. Because, according to
Wayne and others, that's what we're for. We are purpose built for warm fuzzy
donations to sighted people who lack the self-control and logic not to assault us.
Ah but cody. You fail to factor in this one simple element... I may be pritty but I can also be prickly. How can I give others the warm fuzzies they so truly deserve when, if they do assault me, they might get pricked. or otherwise hurt. lol. Not all pretty things are worth assaulting. hahahahaha.
On a slightly different note, anyone ever been walking somewhere, and some random person comes up and asks your name? I hate that. It's like, why? Who in the fuck are you?
I gotta work on pretty a little bit more I have to say. But I’ve got the prickly down though. But anyway, in all seriousness, you guys are right. One of the first things I was taught by someone who wasn’t even a mobility instructor, and this was some time before I went to Manhattan, was that if you’re lost and you know there are lots of businesses around, you walk in and ask directions. I got news for you: It worked! But realy, Manhattan was pretty easy to get around anyway; in fact, it’s one of the most mobility-friendly places to be, in all honesty. Lots of times you can just ask someone what this or that street is and go from there. You learn where the tricky intersections are where the cars all go in what sounds like a very pretty circle, or where it’s incredibly easy to walk in either direction out into oncoming traffic because 71st and 72nd Streets and Amsterdam and Broadway all meet at the same time and the place you wanna end up at is this tiny little point in the middle of a blacktop sea, and then you take an alternative route. I did it all the time. I also have excellent mobility skills, so most of the time people are gunna just assume I know what I’m doing. But here’s the thing, and I’ve said it before. There are some people who see the cane first. Cane is bad. Cane means blind. Blind is bad, helpless, pitiful. Cane means blind person is dumb so needs help. Or a healing prayer. I’ve got no real eyes anymore, by the way, so you let me know how that works, kay? But no matter how good you are, some people are going to get in your way or grab you or whatever. I honestly don’t need those people fucking around with my day. If they don’t have consideration for me, I’m not gunna have much for them. I get really, really impatient with the idea that I’m supposed to be some good-will ambassador or something. Yes, the blind and the sighted are naturally gunna misunderstand one another, particularly when it comes to those of us who have the audacity to be independent and think we have the right to make our own decisions! Well! The very idea! But there’s only so much about my personality I’m willing to change or work on. Matter-of-fact is who I am, not warm and fuzzy. There are some things I might let some people get away with from time to time, but those are people I’ve known all my life, and it’s always on my own terms. And if I think they’re trying to do too much for me or interfere a bit much, I will tell them. I don’t give strangers that much leeway, and I definitely won’t just let anyone assist me just to brighten their day. Number one, it’s not in my nature, and number duce, I’d rather they have an accurate picture of what this particular poor little blind boy is all about.
In response to post 81, I haven’t had that happen, but when I was in Minneapolis, I apparently used to look an awful lot like this guy named Steve. Happened about five or six times. Someone would come up to me and say, “Hey, Steve!” I keep walking. “Steve? Dude?” “Uh, no, I’m not steve.” One time when I was just walking in the skyway to get through Macy’s, cane in my right hand and dragging a shopping cart from my building behind me with my left because I had to go to Target to buy a few things, this woman says: “Well, if I don’t know trouble when I see it!” The look on my face must’ve been the equivalent of duh? Because she quickly realized I had no idea who she was. Must’ve been that mysterious Steve guy again. By the way, I think he must be married to a Bonnie, because this guy walks up to me one day when I’m buying a sandwich and asks me if I’m bonnie’s husband.
You guys are right RE: walking in to a business and asking directions. I taught my daughter and her troupe of friends this very concept when they were young. Beats wandering around and makes you appear more confident. Not just a blind thing. Even cars that get car jacked - if not in a shopping mall or something - are the ones loafing around looking lost. Better to ask, and even to take a wrong turn with confidence, than just sort of aimlessly wander.
I'm in total agreement with post 82. Blindness didn't just magically turn me into a warm friendly person who can't tell the difference between my best friend and a stranger.
Post 73, bring on the thunder and rain! The last time I was out in the pouring rain I had to find my way across a large parking lot. Want to see which one of us can do it faster?
in response to what Sarah asked me, when I say I'm not a walking billboard for educating people, I mean that I don't buy into the, "all blind people speak for each other," viewpoint.
I'm not saying that I will never, ever, ever educate people, but that, just as they don't wanna be bothered all the time, cause they've got 50 million things going on, I don't see it as my responsibility to stop what I'm doing, to educate them about what my preferences are.
Yeah, so I think I understand. For the record, I don't necessarily appreciate the "all blind people represent each other" thing, either, but it is true. People judge us based on their interactions with other blind people. Moreover, though, so just as you don't want to be a walking billboard for blindness education, I don't want to be a walking billboard for feel good moments. I do appreciate where you and Wayne are coming from though.
Lol, johndy, I get confused for other blind people too sometimes. And sometimes I look nothing like said other blind person. Sighted people just see dog or cane and immediately associate, I suppose.
Cody, totally like the example, haha. Not that I stroll eating potato chips or grab random men who wear pretty cologne's arms all too often, though. :P
I don't think we all represent one another in the sense that we are the same, but sighted people tend to assume we are, and so what we do potentially reflects on other blind people, as wrong as that maybe.
You don't have to educate them on all your preferences, but simply encouraging them to ask first helps everyone. You may be ok with people not asking, but others aren't. By encouraging someone to ask, everyone is happy. You yourself can choose to accept the help, and others can politely decline it. To me...I don't see how that is harmful for anyone, yet, enforcing the grabbing behaviour, that is potentially harmful as it could put someone in a dangerous situation.
And why is that a fair shake? Or why should we acdcept or even acknowledge this? How many women, for instance, would appreciate going on a date where she is compared with the last woman the guy dated?
I don't know that many people in wheelchairs. But each case is different. And because I have more sense than the average chicken, I don't misjudge the black one for the white one, the elderly one for the young one who became wheelchairbound due to an injury.
We don't like it when people ascribe a list of qualities to all Asians, all African Americans, and so on. Those groups are a lot more intelligent than us fools. They have said 'no' to such behavior, and so should we.
I didn't say it's right though, I said it happens. And if people go around basically making everyone think we are needy people who will let you drag them across a road then that just reenforces the thought. Politely explaining that it would be nice if someone asked first might make them think next time. I'm not saying go into the ins and outs of guiding, just encourage them to ask. Right or wrong, that could make them handle a similar situation with another blind person differently next time.
Every time I hear this argument, that we are forced to represent all blind
people, and should act accordingly, I have to ask a simple question. How many
blind people do you really think each sighted person comes into contact with on
a daily basis? We're not exactly common. I just don't think its as big an issue as
people make it out to be. Sure, they might assume that the blind person they
see is just like all other blind people they know. But the number of blind people
they know is probably not more than one or two. So is it really that important to
act as if you have the interests of the entire blind community on your
shoulders?
And, for that record, let me say this, don't depend on me. I'm not going to
take the time to educate people. If you want them to treat you in a specific way,
make them treat you that way then. I'm sure as hell not going to do it. I've got
places to go and things to do and a life to live. You take care of you by yourself.
I agree with this last. Especially when I was in a high-stress job, I had a lot less time to think about myself much less other people. In between, I had shopping to do, bills to pay, a home to go to where I could hopefully get three hours' worth of rest. I simply didn't have time. And with me, it's an almost no-win situation because now that I have the time, I guard that time very jealously. There's only so much of my personality I'm willing to modify, besides. And it really pisses me off when the things that I do to just simply mind my own business and assert myself are seen as the ultimate in rude by the mainstream simply because they can see and I can't. I don't feel like answering someone's lame-ass questions about why don't I have a dog. Because I don't, kay? I don't feel like answering someone's stupid questions about how long I've been blind. Not when I'm trying to de-stress with some music. And if someone comes up from behind me and grabs me for what I see as no particular reason, again without asking, I don't want to take the time to explain that what they're doing is not correct. That should be a given.
Bernadetta, one problem with your preference there, there may be no-one around at the time you want help.
Anyway as there's no convincing of some people, I just hope you and the others don't make things worse for others and will leave it at that.
That's why you train yourself to not need other people to get where you're
going. Its really not that difficult. I do it all the time when I want to find a new
place.
Besides, no one is saying that we wouldn't ever ask for help when needed, or that we flip out if we're politely asked whether or not we need help. And I don't flip out even when someone grabs. I pull away and keep walking. It's my right. It's my body. and if someone is attempting to mind my business for me, they damned well better expect I'm gunna call them on it.
RDFreak: If I am volunteering in a public safety capacity, did you know that it's protocol for me to ask someone before assisting them? The only exception is if that person is unconscious, under which conditions I would stand a taut watch and radio the medical people.
But under normal conditions, for most people most of the time, you ask before you assert. That's it, open and shut. People who assert first are not acting in the interest of public safety. Even if you're not in the U.S. you can read any basic training material you want from FEMA and other organizations, but I'm sure in your own country this is also available online.
People who assert first and ask later if at all, are not acting out of the interest of the other's safety. Unless the person is unconscious, or somehow falling like off a train platform etc. which I described the train platform situation earlier.
As to your comment about getting lost? I got lost for two hours once in Hokaido Japan when I was over there. So yeah, I know what it's like to get lost. It happens. It didn't happen because people support standard public safety measures taken for everyone, not just the sighted or not just women. I'm appalled at the ignorance here, but I guess I shouldn't be.
Agree with Leo here, getting hold of someone and "helping", is not actually helpful. It goes against all safety guidelines unless that person is unconscious...in which situation I really hope they would call the paramedics rather than carry me somewhere!
I'm glad many of us agree that each individual who happens to be blind, doesn't represent the "blind community," that some like to think exists.
we don't assume that every sighted person we interact with represents all sighted people. so, why should this be, or is this instance any different? that's mind-boggling, to me.
But, nobody said that we are the same, just that many sighted people assume we are, which is of course wrong...but how many sighted people watch a documentary/tv show about a blind person and assume it's the norm, even if it actually isn't. A lot, if they've never come into contact with a blind person before. Yes, it's totally illogical, but it is the truth.
That's why I try to politely tell people to ask first, before I make my escape. I just feel that should they come into contact with another blind person, or someone with any kind of disability hopefully they would ask in the future, giving the person the opportunity to accept or decline help.
Just read the last few posts.
Who on Earth reads safety guidelines before offering or trying to help somebody? I certainly don't anyway.
It is better to be helped when you don't need help, than not to be helped when you need help. If somebody who is trying to be helpful does something wrong, they can be politely corrected.
I don't recognise "the blind community". Generally, people who claim to speak on my behalf as a blind person are not speaking on my behalf.
Well said, Holly. We aren't the same, but people will judge blind people based off their interaction with one of us. Heck, they'll probably judge other people with totally different disabilities based on one of us. I can't tell you the number of people who get all excited about telling me stories about family members or classmates or coworkers who were also disabled in some way.... It's like, oh, cool? I guess? Or I always get the "I can guide you, I had a friend in college who was blind so I know how to do it" as if it's some rare art form that needs years of perfection and practice. Once, in high school, I was battling the lunchroom rush on my way to class, and I think I was just having a bad day anyway, so looked very lost, even though I actually knew where I was going, and the track coach approached me and said, "Hi, can I help you? I used to work in New York City, and I would help many blind people on the subway, so I'm experienced in this kind of thing. Take my arm." To this day, my mom and I still joke about it. "Take my arm, I'm trained in blind people!" Hahaha. In that situation, though he was being kind, it was also terribly ignorant. I ended up getting to know him super well when I did track, and so I'm so glad I didn't give him some crappy attitude, even though I was pretty offended by the "experienced in this kind of thing" comment. People just say some stupid shit. I think I just asked him if I was headed toward the stairs or whatever, and he did try to follow me, but I jus ttold him "I got it, thanks." That's my usual. And it did help of course that he didn't grab me or anything. He did ask first. So that was good.
Anyway, yeah, in terms of the safety guidelines stuff, I honestly don't read up on them at all, which I probably should, so all the power to those of you who do, but to be quite frank, I'm not as concerned with the fact that in standard safety procedure you do such and such, or that someone grabbing me could result in contraband being placed on my person. It's more about basic human respect and consideration. Originally, when I was reading this topic, I was not liking the ultra mega super negative approach people were taking, but as I reflect on and read about it more, though I might not put it as blunt as Cody because I don't find it necessary to be rude to get a point across, it is my body and people should respect that instead of just grabbing me to "help." Obviously that just isn't helpful at all. Also I don't really encounter random grabbing as has been described here, so maybe that's why I wasn't quite as sympathetic. But really though. Leo had a great point about how other groups don't stand for being disrespected and mistreated by others, so why should we? I've started noticing how more and more of my blind facebook friends post honest statuses about various traveling struggles, or dog problems, or just people issues, and I think that's so great. It should be commonplace for us to vent our frustrations too. I'm not saying we should always piss and moan about our problems, but if the general public could start to get a better understanding of our lives, I think that is better for all.
It’s actually interesting how much in common we sometimes have with other groups. When I lived in Minneapolis, I had to take a cab somewhere, and the cabdriver happened to be a Native American. Dunno how we got on the topic, but she and I were comparing notes about how (a) everyone she meets has to tell her about this Native American or that with whom they were friends, or whom they knew tangentially, or (b) how many people had to tell me how they knew this or that blind person. It’s like we were both such rarities that people had to tout how understanding or with it they were. We both agreed that humanoids could be annoying creatures in general.
Congrats on your A, Voyager!
Reminds me when I was on a trip once and I had to get some help finding the bathroom, so this one guy took me and explained that he worked with, um, intellectually delayed children, so I guess that was his qualification for the job, even if it was a one-shot deal. Wanted to tell him I knew of an apple and an orange that wanted to tell him something but he probably wouldn't have gotten it.
Astounds me how many women talk about this as though it's okay or something they / we have to accept, when they would unjderstandably be appalled and upset if a pig of a man who claimed all women he knew were "bitches" (in quotes) and so he treated them so.
Disparity much?
No, you don't have to accept that from such a pig, and nor do we from others RE: being blind, and nor did the black cab driver I hired for a week in a certain area of the country when on business.
In reality, a woman in that situation who was "not a bitch" according to that guy, whatever that means, would only confirm to him how she is 'not like that," and thereby justify in his hind-brain how he's right about all the others.
This is the same for the black cab driver who had this discussion with me years ago that I hired for a week. And it's the same for us. In my observation, people think what they think. If you're not "the norm" then they just go on and on and on about how you're not like all the rest. In other words, they learned nothing.
Hell, the same thing happens when I go out and buy things for the Wife, like chocolates and flowers. Finally I got enough of the backhanded compliments ... "You're one of those rare men that actually does this ... how nice you're not like all those others ..." So I asked her: "I'm curious: Why are all these flowers and chocolates so relatively cheap? I mean, if most men don't, these should be out of this world expensive." Now, that actually gave her pause to think, and maybe change her view. All those years of just putting up with it? Just confirming their already confirmation bias.
Any woman could do the same thing to the guy who claimed "all women are bitches," and the black person or Native American could do something similar to the racists in that environment.
So now, the all we need to do is the same Socratic methodology: "Well, if you see all these people walking around that you are amazed by, how do you suppose there are so many that continue to do so? Are you sure it's actually that different?" Or, "Isn't fumbling for a doorknob sometimes, or dropping something, or not watching where you're going and being a bit clumsy, common to the human experience?"
Because if we just accept it, as I accepted the backhanded compliments about getting things for the Wife for a couple of decades, they won't learn anything. Ask them something that makes them think just a little bit: perhaps their brain needs just a little exercise. The Socratic method is not being an asshole, and I've seen intelligent women use it on guys pulling the "all women are bitches act." So, why not us? The potential end result is a higher thought process in the other party.
Leo, that post is so brilliant. I'm going to totally think about this next time I get into a situation where it's applicable, and not just with blind stuff. Educating in general. Socratic method all the way.
"...So this one guy took me and explained that he worked with, um, intellectually delayed children, ..."
At which point I would be tempted to pull out my Mensa card, not that it would do me any good. I've handled similar situations by making it very clear that comparing me to a child, or to someone who's mentally retarded is highly offensive, and they should never, ever do that again. But I've been compared to much worse:
Once at a bus stop (funny how these things almost always seem to happen at bus stops), some guy told a blind friend and me that he understood us because his father had given himself diabetes, gone blind and then eaten and drunk himself to death. I said, "excuse me, but I was born blind. I had no choice in the matter. I also try to make healthy choices. You're telling me that your father became blind due to the decisions he made, so he and I have nothing in common, especially now that he's dead."
That seemed to make him stop and think. In my opinion being compared to a retarded person isn't quite as bad, because no one chooses to be retarded.
And you blind people expect all sighted people to act same as well. It won't happen.
You also have notions about sighted people too, and that is human.
I guess I don't understand the anger, or whatever you all feel.
Someone trying to help is not going to harm you, nor is it a public safety issue as I've said before.
But, okay, I'll understand you all refuse to relax. Sighted people should know better. Blind people should know how to get to places on there own.
Everyone should understand the blind situation.
It ain't happening. Sorry folks.
But again, it is you, be uptight.
Wayne, that sounds a lot like "Because you're the minority, its your job to
conform."
We talked about that earlier.
I don't say confirm, butunderstand, or something.
This also isn't exactly the same type issue. No ones trying to put you in jail for a purse you never touched. Smile.
Sounds like you're looking for empathy. To some degree I can choose how I respond to them, but I can't empathize with them.
And if you put that shoe on the other foot?
I don't understand how I'm supposed to react differently than I do to someone whom I don't know, don't know is there and don't know their motives, just reaching up and grabbing at me without saying even so much as boo. I'm minding my own business. I'm not doing anything but getting from point A to point B. And I'm supposed to understand? Makes no difference how confident I travel or how confident I seem, either. they just think they have the right to lay hands on me. How is that even right, acceptable or something I should put up with? I don't see how anyone could possibly not be offended by it whether they be blind or sighted.
Wayne, I will admit that you have a point when you can tell me a method that
can never fail by which a blind person can tell the difference between the person
who is grabbing them to be helpful and the person who is grabbing them to mug
or rape them. If you can tell me a method of discerning that which is 100
percent effective, then I'll admit you have a point. Until them, I'm going to have
to continue considering you to be bigoted.
Okay. An interesting point Cody.
Here's what I say.
If you are grabbed forcefully, and yanked, I'd take that as alarm and get on the defence to protect myself.
This means someone coming from behind and putting hands on you as well, so you feel like there attaching.
Now, the person that steps up and takes your arm, or comes from behind and puts hands on you in a manner that feel like there guiding you around something, I take as either help, or greeting.
I've been greeted in this fashion by women, not men, so that is why I say greeting.
This can't be 100%, because that will depend on a persons state of calm, or self possession. That sI can't say, only suggest a blind person try to relax more.
I'd say this comes down to your experiences, because I've never been grabbed by anyone big enough to make a difference in a guiding method.
I have also never been grabbed roughly when a persons is wishing to guide or be helpful.
Once walking with a lady, both of us blind, a neighbor grabbed me and picked me up. He's about 6 foot 8, a really big guy, likes to play.
In that situation, I still felt no danger, and that is due to self possession.
Now, that was a grab I'd rate as alarming however. He had me in a bare hug, and lifted me off the ground.
How often does that happen?
I can't make you agree, but I feel you all go over board. Especially when you start talking about parents and how you are treated like a child and such.
I tend to think this situation, or your feelings about it are rooted in this sort of thing, because there is no way you know what a persons thinking when they are trying to be helpful other than that, if you'd give them this.
But again, this is your body, your space, and I've agreed you have a right to it. But when you take that right, as sighted people you feel have, you must accept that you will be allowed to walk off that platform, just like you can see. That is what would happen to a sighted person. The people watching would just assume he/she will stop, so won't make a move to protect them before hand.
Like the poster here, instead of trying to help her around the paper box, he should have called the police and said some lady is trying to steal the box, or something. Or perheaps, there's a crazy lady that might need some assistants on the street.
All this didn't happen, because he could see she's blind, so probably thought she was doing exactly what she was trying to do. He saw there was no point, so instead of stopping his phone conversation, he just lent assistants, quickly and officiently.
So, lets be clear here, your only answer to my challenge is "well if it doesn't
feel like a legitimate rape, its probably just someone helping you". Do you
realize how stupid that sounds wayne? Your happy-go-lucky hippie shit might
work for you, and that's great, but you're not a small, volnerable-looking blind
girl. You have this really bad habit of not being able to see situations from
anyone else's perspective. You think, "well, I've never been in that situation, so
you just need to relax. It can't be anywhere near as bad as you're saying it is,
cuz its never happened to me". The funny thing is that you almost invariably
come back a few posts later with a story about how it did actually happen to
you, but you didn't really care cuz "give peace a chance man" and all that
bullshit.
So, not that I'm expecting you to be able to empathize with anyone other
than yourself here, but let me pose another little brain-teaser. Why is it exactly
that you feel it is so incredibly difficult for sighted people to say the words,
"excuse me, do you need any help". Are you under some delusion that sighted
people cannot form these words? Has someone misinformed you by telling you
that sighted people will be arrested and thrown into prison if they use this
phrase? Are you simply too invested in your pointless little "lets just all be
friends" crusade to think that perhaps sighted people presume we need help,
and thus leap over the polite forms of requesting permission? Or is it that you
are simply bigoted against blind people and think we should just take it cuz
we're the minority and we shouldn't make waves?
Because I gotta tell you Wayne, every single scenario you have presented on
this entire board; not just the ones in the prior post, but all of them, could be
handled without touching the person sans permission. Yes, that includes the
train platform. If someone is walking towards the train platform's edge, it is a
simple matter of saying, "Hey, you're very close to the edge". Problem solved.
But no, we're here to make sighted people feel better about themselves
according to you. So we should just let them physically violate and assault us. I
have to say Wayne, I find your ideals and your principles disgusting.
You have read that I am not a small girl. But even small girls know well enough when there being attacked or not.
It happened, but I still wasn't bent out of shape, because again, I could tell he wasn't really after me to harm me. If the big guy wanted to harm me he could have simply punched me in the face, but he just picked me up. He didn't start to run.
I'll not get in to defence here, but even then there was a way out.
I do see your situation, but I still think you all go a bit over board.
I talked about the sighted person telling you you are near the tracks, and what that sometimes causes. Hackles go up, and you say, I damn well know where I am.
I've said it is your body, and you can feel as you want, but I can't agree that it is the correct thing.
For me, it is just to uptight.
You want sighted people to understand your side of the coin, but you refuse to meet them in the middle and see why they feel or do as they do.
You don't care if you make them feel bad, because, well, you're right, and there wrong.
It makes no difference if you make someones day by giving a little, because, well, you don't have to.
Fine. Don't, as I've said, but again, when you do accept what comes with that.
You can't have it both ways.
Sighted people can do lots of things, so could blind people, but we're humans.
If you the blind wish to make your day worse by getting mad or feeling like you're disrespected so be it.
If you are extremely uptight, scared, I've suggested getting someone to walk this poster around from class to class. There is no shame in that at all.
It will also give her some time to relax. That could make going to college a better experience all around.
Stress is a bad deal, and anything to avoid it is tops in my book.
To be fair Wayne, I'm reasonably small. 5 3 and I weigh under 120 pounds. If someone grabbed me, I'm not sure I would know if they were being helpful in their mind or not. I'm not going to say you have no idea what it's like to be sexually asaulted, because I simply don't know, but let's assume you don't.
I was on the bus with my friend, she has low vision. We were around 14. This old guy came and sat by us and started to talk to us. A lot of old people chat to strangers on the bus, and I always talk back, the majority are friendly. So this guy is talking to us about how he used to help out at some blind school etc etc. Then he puts his hand on my leg, and I moved away towards my friend. And he kept getting closer, then when we went to leave he put his hand on my chest, at the side between us.
I understand this isn't someone who was offering me help, but what you're not seeing here is someone could get hold of you without force and still touch you inappropriately. Of course, 99% of the time this probably wouldn't happen, but the fact is it does. I like to be able to have the choice of who I make physical contact with, and how it happens. So if someone asks if I need help, I can say no, or say yes, please could I take your arm.
I'm not saying personal safety is always the first thing that springs into my head when people grab me, but honestly, I just don't like being touched. Unless of course I know that person, they are a friend, or it's in a situation where I expect it. Basically, can we just go with consent is good, in all situations, don't do things unless you have it.
I'm going to try to say this very sensatively given Holly's admission. I'm not
only speaking of sexual assault when I use that word. I'm speaking of things as
simple as mugging or pick pocketing.
Let me share one of my stories. I was standing at a street corner, waiting for
cars to cross. It happened that the street paralel to the one I was on was a high
traffic area, so it was difficult for me to hear the cars on my street which were
going at a much slower speed. So, I was waiting until I was comfortable with
the situation before I decided to cross. A man, walking in the same direction,
approached me from behind and, without even announcing his presence or
intentions, grabbed me by the back of the neck and the upper arm and began
physically dragging me across the street.
My first thought was not that he's trying to be helpful. My first thought was
that he was trying to kidnap me. I was about thirteen at the time. So I reacted
as I'd been taught to react. I elbowed him as hard as I could, screamed for
help, and got out of the street as fast as I could.
These are the things I'm talking about. It is absolutely unacceptable to grab
or push or touch a person without their permission. That does not only mean
sexually, it means at all.
But, to illustrate this point, I'll ask a question modified from an old board
post. Wayne, and anyone who agrees with Wayne, under what circumstances
would you grab someone without asking first?
I think what people are talking about is personal autonomy. There's all kinds of words now, about what is or is not okay. but in short, you're the one that should get to decide who can take you and who can't.
In reality, also, even the most innocent flutterbudget, when they get you lost or nearly get you killed, is not liable or responsible. You are. So it makes no rational sense to allow a random stranger to engage like that.
I, too, am sorry about the assault situation. And that proves well enough how things can go down. She clearly did not know this was going to happen, and by the time it was happening, had limited or no options of escape.
And people will say you can shout, or something, if that happens. And i'm sure in some situations if I was being dragged away I would. But leo is right, it comes down to the fact that you have the right to choose who makes physical contact with you. And honestly, sometimes you don't even think to react in an aggressive way. Put it in the context of being a young teenager, now, I would probably react much differently. But at the time I was mostly just surprised that it was actually happening, and the idea of shouting didn't even come into my head. I just felt really awkward and wasn't sure what the right reaction is. So when you think there are all kinds of blind people walking around, as there are sighted people. And something might happen, just because some of us would react in a way that may be able to get ourselves out of a situation doesn't mean everyone could. And that's why I so strongly disagree with Wayne's sentament.
I'm not naturally mistrustful of anyone who says hi to me, because I know most people wouldn't harm me. But the fact is, if someone speaks to me, they are giving me a choice. If someone comes up and starts putting their hands over me, they are taking my right to choose away. And although most have good intentions not everyone does, and even if they do mean well, I still have the right to choose whether I want that assistance or not, rather than having it forced upon me.
And I think that's what people like myself, Cody, Leo and others are saying. We have the right to be autonomous, even anonymous beings. Most of the time, I have to say, no one bothers me. I walk by someone and I know they're walking past me in one direction or the other. I ignore them, they ignore me. Or they say hi and I say hi. They don't reach out and grab. But then, there are occasions when someone will do that, or say something inappropriate, or whatever. I hate to say this, but I react first and ask questions later. When I'm crossing the street and I know what I'm doing, but someone reaches out and grabs at me without saying anything, I take it for granted that I have the untrammeled right to refuse that help. If they don't say anything to me before grabbing, I don't say anything when I pull away. It's my body. Pure and simple. There's no debate on this. I'm right and they're wrong, and that's the end of it. L'estate cest moi. Or however you spel it.
Holly. I'm 6 foot tall and most times I weight 200 185 at the lowest, and I'm a body builder.
Okay, saying that, no one grabbes me, they simply don't.
I am also not talking about things like you used Leo, or the sexual assault. I'm only referring to the guiding help, or the verbal word, you are getting to close, or situations like that.
Like the poster talks about.
Even at 13, if someone man or woman grabbed me by the back of the neck, they'd have gotten slapped, I'm not easy scared.
I have givien you all your right, but you've not given me any leeway at all. You don't want to understand why people do as they do, nor do you care.
That is fine.
If we hold this down to guided help, and reasonable people, that is what I'm talking about. I just don't see the need, reason, or whatever to take it so hard, but I'm also extremely a relaxed person and I try to always understand people.
Even here, I see the point, but I just can't go as deep and alarming as you all do. It, to me, is just not necessary.
I guess I'm not built that way.
I've been hugged, kissed, and such by perfect strangers, and I'm not bothered by it at all, so that tells you mmy self possession level.
I allow people to help me even when I don't need help, just because it cost me nothing, and most times they feel good about what they've done.
Get the signs, do whatever it takes to educate the sighted not to touch you, but remember, that is a two edged sord.
If you refuse to try to understand nothing I say will change that.
Live well.
But I do understand, people grab because they want to help, and they think we need it. Which is fine that they want to help, but how do I know what someone's intentions are? They may be good, but they may not. And if someone gets my arm and starts pulling me across a road how do I know if they are thinking I need assistance crossing, or actually want to harm me. This is what I'm getting at. Whereas if someone comes and asks me, hey, do you need help, I'll either say yeah, that would be great thanks, or no, i'm doing ok, but thanks for asking.
I make a point of not being a bitch to people, even if they do things like grabbing me that would perhaps merrit it. But I don't let someone take hold of me and take me somewhere. What if they think they are helping me cross a road, but it's actually a complex intercection and they take me to a part of it I didn't want to go to. Then, not only have I been taken somewhere against my will, I also don't have a clue where i've been placed, I have to get back to my original location and go from there all over again. I'm not going to let someone get hold of me and take me somewhere on the off chance it's the place I want to go.
I honestly don't doubt most people's intentions, I just don't see why I would willingly put myself in a situation where I could potentially get my whole route screwed over by someone trying to help.
Yet, if they asked me, I could actually explain what I do or don't need, they would be able to give me the assistance I require, and I'd also be happy.
It really is that simple.
Most sighted people are good people, like most blind people. But just because someone is good doesn't mean I want them to make decisions for me.
My mum is a good person, but I wouldn't want her to come and drag me across a road, even if her intentions were genuine. What if she thought I wanted to go to one shop, when I actually wanted to go to another. I'm not questionning the integrity of most of these people, I'm just saying that bad stuff does happen, and even if the person means well, that doesn't mean that they don't end up screwing your route over by trying to help you.
A simple question is all it takes to make the situation easier for everyone. They ask, I say yes or no, everyone's day runs smoothly.
I've never doubted the intentions of most people, like I said in a previous post, even after bad experience i'm not mistrustful, it's just i'm not a mind reader. I couldn't walk up to someone and take them where they wanted to go, perhaps they were pausing to think about the next turning they need to take or something. Yes, body language does indicate a lot, but you shouldn't just guess where someone wants to go and take them without asking. That's as bad mannered as me telling them to fuck off if they did, which, by the way I don't.
You criticise us for the lack of manners you perceive us to have, but whether someone means well or not taking away my personal autonomy is also rude if you think about it. I let it slide, in the sense that I'm not rude back, I don't like that, but I also don't let them just take me places either.
Why do there good intentions matter at all? I could have the best intentions in
the world, if I burn your house down, its not going to matter. I could say that I
was trying to get rid of termites, but I burned your house down. I don't
understand this forgiveness of blatant rudeness and patronization just because
they had good intentions.
And I note you didn't answer my question. I'm willing to bet its because you
know what will happen when you answer it honestly.
What question did I not answer?
You ask how could you tell, or what device I could give that would let you know 100% you weren't being attacked.
I said I couldn't give you a 100%, because that depend on the persons self possession.
I do hope most of us can tell an assist from a rape however.
Let me ask a question, because maybe I don't see this from this angle.
How often does it actually happen you get dragged across a road, or gotten of your course?
I do understand our travel skils are all different, so I can't use the fact if I allow myself to be taken I don't loose my sense of where I am. I can totally understand how some might.
To Cody directly, when you were in the street, why can't you understand how that looked, and maybe the fear that went in to that person just wanting to get you out of the street as quickly as possible?
I wasn't there, but maybe he/she could see danger approaching?
I've not suggested you totally give in and allow people to do anything to you.
I've suggested you try to meet them half way.
It just seems to me you don't want to.
That is a people thing, not a blind thing, but I still think you'd be less stressed if you did.
Someone pulling you across a road is easy stopped, and it doesn't require much.
Again, how often does this happen?
Oh, and I forgot. I'm not talking about your manners, I'm talking about your understanding quota.
"To Cody directly, when you were in the street, why can't you understand how that looked, and maybe the fear that went in to that person just wanting to get you out of the street as quickly as possible?"
He said he wasn't in the street. He was preparing to cross the street.
Honestly, I think post 126 asks a fair question. How often does it happen that one gets dragged across the road or gotten off-course? Not very often, I have to say. Like I said in a previous posting, people mostly ignore me and I ignore them unless I know them, or unless they give me reason to push back. The vast, vast majority of the time I don’t have cause to be a bitch. But I want to articulate something here, and I’m not quite sure I’ll be able to get the point across. I think there are still some very deeply engrained notions about blindness and blind people that go into some people’s behavior, both the blind and the sighted. The people who tend to grab at you or ask annoying questions or try to tell you what to do see the blindness first and the personhood of the blind person last. We are seen as naturally less competent, even less intelligent than a person with sight. Maybe that’s because our ways of learning are so different. We learn from doing things hands-on. If we’re not allowed to learn or are sheltered, we are actually less competent than a sighted person in a similar place. And because so many of us are still sheltered, because so many of us have negative perceptions about our own competence, many of us naturally fall into the role of being more helpless and less capable. I see it all the time at work because I work around a ton of blind people of varying abilities. I have to say that some of them really exasperate me, to be honest. I suppose that’s what makes some of us who see ourselves as very independent guard our independence rather fiercely. Maybe sometimes we’re too fierce. I dunno. But I’ve been in situations where I’ve had my judgment questioned simply because of my blindness. I know what I’m about, I know how competent I am, and yet some asshole insists they know better than I what my capabilities or limitations are or should be. Frankly, it hurts. I can’t begin to explain how it grates on some visceral level that I can’t quite define. It’s why, when I’m grabbed without my permission, I react the way I do. Rather than asking me if I need assistance, the assumption is that I do. The assumption is that I know less than this or that person because he or she can see, and I can’t. And I’m supposed to be okay with that? Why can’t you ask if help is needed instead of assuming it is needed? Is it that hard to do? And if you don’t take the time to ask, wy should I take the time to understand your motives, whatever they might be? It’s like you think I don’t deserve that kind of consideration because you’ve already determined that I’m a lesser person than you. Here’s an example. I used to go back and forth from Manhattan to upstate New York all the time by train. I’d walk to the train station from my job or my apartment just fine. If I needed assistance, I asked directions. I did pretty okay. There was this guy who must’ve been some sort of security guard or whatever. It didn’t happen often, but whenever this guy was around, I always got trouble from him. Instead of asking, for instance, if I needed help down the escolater, he always insisted on getting someone to help even though I insisted I didn’t need it. That time I defied him and went down on my own. And one time he tried to stop me from going down the stairs on my own by putting his arm in front of me and getting someone to go with me when I clearly didn’t want or need it. I told the guy he tried to get to help me that I was okay, and I was left alone. But it was like someone tried to take my power to decide from me. And it’s like that every time someone encroaches on my space. I see it as an interference in my right to choose to be handled, much less my right to decide what I’m capable of and what I’m not. Frankly, I shouldn’t have to fight that fucking hard to be respected.
Wow, Johndy, that was very well written. While in philosophy I tend to agree with forereel, I concur with much of what you say as well.
Just try to remember that those blind people who are exasperating you might very well be doing the best that they can. We ain't all created equally, you know!
Thank you. And you're right; sometimes we blind people can be pretty bitchy towards one another. Although I think sometimes it still comes down to how much others expected of you when you're young. If those who were most influential in your life didn't show much confidence in you at a relatively early stage, either in your life as a whole or in your new life as an adventitiously blind person, you aren't going to expect that much of yourself, and I think you'll give some sighted people more leeway just because they're sighted and you're not.
Wayne, the question was, under what circumstances would you grab someone
else. And yes, as voyager said, I was not in the street, I was on the sidewalk
preparing to cross the street.
Now then, lets address this whole, how often does this happen, thing. You're
right that it is rare I'm dragged across the street. However, because there is
construction throughout my city of residence at the moment, it happens almost
daily that someone will grab my neck or shoulder to try to move me around
cones and fences. Now, what's the problem with this you might ask? I have a
guide dog, and that guide dog is trying to, you know, guide me. So when
someone grabs my shoulder and pushes me to the left, it forces me into the
hind legs of my guide dog. This morning I actually stepped on his paw to the
point that he yelped in pain because I was pushed into him when he was trying
to show me a barrier. Which, in case you are unfamiliar with guide dogs, is part
of his job.
There are also points where I have to walk in the street for a while to get
around construction trucks and the like. Frequently I am grabbed and pushed
around cones and things, while my guide dog is trying to guide me around them
and avoid the cars that are coming the other way. This is both distracting to me
and confusing to him. I can't read the signals he's trying to send to me, and he
can't figure out what I want because I'm being pushed in a different direction
than he thinks I want to go.
It also happens quite frequently that, when a cab drops me off at a certain
place and I ask in what direction the door to that place is, that the cab driver
will get out and grab my shoulder or arm to direct me. This also doesn't work
well because they try to guide me around the car, which makes me unable to
give my dog direction commands, which means I have to twist the harness,
simply by the action of them turning me. If they'd simply say, its on the other
side of the cab, I'd know what they meant and go that way under my own
power. If they asked me, I'd be able to tell them right away that they can just
direct me by voice, but they don't.
So, how often do the major ones happen, not very often. How often does it
happen and mess up my travel skills, several times a week.
I have to ask: What does it matter how often it happens.
By that flawed logic, if someone steels from you only once or twice a year, it's perfectly ok that they stole from you, even if that one time, they took your keys to that brand-new BMW.
Even if the once-or-twice-a-year-theif stole that BMW from you to drive a dying dog to a vet, still, he should have asked. It's common courtessy to ask.
Sighted people do often assume that we are lesser in some sense then they are. These assumptions manifest themselves in a variety of ways: pitty, misplaced awe, the urge to take charge, the urge to disrespect... Why should I understand someone who barely even respects me on their own level. I'm not waging war against all sighted people, I'm only asking for the personal right to my own body and for the respect that is owed to all capable humans.
I'll gladly educate someone about my preferences when I have the time and they the desire to listen, but if they take charge of me so clearly and so blatantly, I'll take charge of myself right back.
I have to agree that most people don't mean harm. And its' not even a question of whether someone does or doesn't mean to harm you. It's a matter of you knowing what's the best way to handle your own particular situation.
The sighted guy that grabbs you with the best of intentions and brings you around the pole might never have been around a blind person before, and may not know the proper protocol. But that doesn't mean you let it slide, you remind him, even considerately, that hey, dude, I'm a person too. Thanks for the help but I'd appreciate you ask next time. You're not actually helping me.
Oh and one other thing: I'm going to make a confession. I'm a good cane and guide traveler, but I will admit that I do have crappy spacial orientation skills. I am shit at geography. If someone turns me around I'll make my way eventually, but I'll have a hell of a time figuring it out especially if the person's actions are swift and quick, and the actions are being taken in a busy urban area.
I should know. It happened to me when I lived in Boston sometimes. It wasn't fun. And so there, it actualy did take away from my day and messed my routine up. Why should I let someone help me when it's at my expense and I don't need the help.
Why should I just take a move born from good intentions and ignorance just because I'm one and the sighted are many?
I will not jerk away and call the well-intentioned sighted person an asshole and yell at them with a "How dare you assault me." But I will take my person away from their grasp and I will state that their method is not helpful; can they help me verbally instead. How is that rude?
By that same token, all minorities should parade themselves in funny hats and hilarious costumes for the rich, red-blooded white man's ?
Ugh. how did I get cut off? Anyway, my last scenario wouldn't go over well with any of us, now would it?
it all comes back to personal autonomy. It's not hard for someone to ask. Sacrificing someone's autonomy is way more than blindness, or independence. Thanks to everyone who used the term 'personhood'. This is even better than one's humanity, as high as that is: taking away one's personhood is exactly what this is.
It is definitely a statement of power. Power can be exercised, be it a well-meaning granny, or a paternalistic male overlord. It is still raw and uncontrolled power. Asking first before acting against the agency of another is the most formative concept in human and other primate relations to one another.
Okay. I’d grab someone that was standing in a street, or trying to get around something that wasn’t going to move.
As I grabbed them I also would voice something, but that is me.
I’ve done this to sighted people about to drop something or I’ve noticed struggling with something, I don’t ask, I just help them.
Okay, so that is bad on my side, but I don’t stop to think about it, it just happens.
johndy, well written, but and I did talk about the personal thing, or that side of this. I really don’t think all the people trying to help think less of you due to you being blind, but I’d agree it happens.
I think much of what you’ve talked about is behind all of you’s anger in this matter, not the rest.
Cody, in your case, I can understand how you’d get tired of it.
I used dogs before, and frankly instead of getting close to me, people backed away. I’ve had police officers not approach me when I had my dog in my hand. Odd, but that’s the deal with me.
“Does your dog bite?” Now, why would they think that? Smile.
On the stealing part, I’ve said I understood this, what I don’t understand or agree with is the anger in this situation. It pisses you all off, and that doesn’t have to be that way.
It is like the things thatjohndy talks about, all the pent up reasons come out in this small situation seemingly.
I did ask the question, and I got a fair answer.
Last and again, I saw, or see the point, but still can’t agree with the anger, or lack of understanding.
I rest on this one.
Oh, and I forgot. If the person I grab, and I don't do it forcefully happens to be blind, I've done it, sorry, after I get them safe I ask them where they were trying to go, because I understand some will get turned around.
Earlier I posted about the guy that fell when a friend and I were walking. That happened maybe 2 3 weeks ago. We didn't ask she just rushed over and started to get him off the ground and check to see if he'd hurt himself. I leaned in to help, but by that time he was talking, so I left her to it alone.
and do you realize that by assisting without finding out the extent of the
situation you could have easily killed or paralyzed that man? What if he'd hit his
head, or just twisted his neck in the fall, he could have had a spinal injury, in
standing him up, or even moving his arm or touching him you could have
finished what the fall started. Is it common, no, not for the average citizen, but
there's a reason they teach you that on the first day of any first aid class. Never
touch an injured person unless you absolutely have to, if they're drowning, or
they've stopped breathing for example.
Seems the perfect alegory for our situations. These sighted people don't know
what they're doing, what needs done, or how to do whatever might need done.
However, instead of asking, they assume, and rush in to do their good deed for
the day. Nine times out of ten they make the situation worse.
But, what makes you think we show anger to the sighted people wayne?
We've shown anger here because we can all pretty much relate to this; except
you who apparently isn't even bothered by racism and bigotry, and whose
calmness honestly makes me question every one of your principles, but lets not
go there. On here, we're safe to voice our frustration. we're free to say, "damn I
hate when sighted people do that", because the vast majority of people will say
back, "I know man. That sucks".
When we're out on the street, we're not going to stop and berate a sighted
person for ten minutes on human rights and dehumanization of grabbing
people, we've got coffee to buy and classes to get to. We shake off the hand,
say no thank you, and stroll on about our way. What makes you think we show
our frustration at all?
I know it's a bit of a sidetrack, but if you're going to help someone to their feet, squat, don't bend down. I helped a lady up once when She was fallen on the ice. She was clearly not paralyzed and was sitting, attempting to rise. Even a bigger guy like Wayne should squat: You'll be way more effective. Let the victim put their arm over your shoulder, which I did in that instance, then, if they're somewhat unsteady, clasp the wrist of that hand so the arm won't slide off. Then as you rise slowly to your feet, you're using not only your legs but your sense of balance to secure their footing. This is also a great way to handle the situation, because your back doesn't get strained, and equally or more important, it requires communication.
Personally if the victim was not attempting to rise on their own, I'd stand a taut watch over them, make a phone call to 911, and in colder temperatures put my own coat over them. Even if they're bundled, the extra warmth is often needed in a situation like that.
This is all very different from someone who is blind taking a perceived wrong turn, or missing a driveway by half an inch.
I see less anger and more explanation on this thread, actually. There is of course some anger at personal autonomy being violated, that is common to the human experience. Personal autonomy is an integral part of being human.
When you read about how the Nazis treated the Jews, a lot of it is not the ultimate torture and death. Long before they were taken to a concentration camp, steps were taken to ensure their personal autonomy was deliberately violated over and over and over again. That wouldn't be so important if personal autonomy weren't so important.
I find a distinction between touching and grabbing. But then, I don't have an aversion to being touched. It may have something to do with growing up in the south.
I'm an average sized female, about 5 foot 5 and 120 pounds or so. Still female, but not a little delicate thing. I have to say that reading this thread, I find the behavior of trying to move a newspaper box kind of strange. You've explained why you were doing it, but if I were a sighted person, this is what I might have done, and found it acceptable. I would have seen this person trying to move a fairly hefty newspaper box. What are they doing? That looks weird. Do they think they can't find a way around it? I might have approached you and lightly touched your arm or shoulder to get your attention. I might have said something like, "Hey, uh, you need a little help with that? What are you trying to do?" The touch would have been a brief, light contact on your upper arm or shoulder. Obviously to me anyway, that's probably not the touch of someone who is about to assault somebody.
I've been grabbed by people when I was a cane user. Just yesterday morning, I was standing still, talking to an older lady who thought I was another blind woman she knew. She grabbed my hand suddenly and put it to her face to feel. I instinctively jerked back, pulling my hand away from her. I stammered for words, finally managing to say, "I don't... I mean, that's not how I..." Her behavior was not appropriate, especially given that we were in a super public place. Even though I couldn't find the brain power to educate her, I wasn't about to fly off the handle and tell her what a crazy grabby lady she was; don't touch me stranger danger. To me, being snappy and snippy to people is the same as being incredibly rude. She didn't know any better. Still, I think she got the point that she freaked me out a little.
So I guess the long and short of it is, touching seems like a normal human interaction, but don't grab hold of me. For me, it's also a different vibe. Obviously, if a man grabs me, I'm way more likely to flip out just a little and be more alarmed than if another woman, especially someone older were to do it. But again, I was raised in that sort of environment.
The bus parked in a weird place yesterday, and I was expressing my confusion to the driver. He asked, "May I?" and I felt him bump me with his arm in an offer to sighted guide me.
If anybody, sighted or blind is about to step out into the wrong traffic pattern, if any person is about to walk into something, if any person is about to step off an edge, or trip over a cord stretched across their path, if anyone, disabled or not is in some kind of immediate potential peril, I probably might stop them instinctively, either by putting a hand on their shoulder, or, if it's really intense, grabbing their arm to halt them. Distasteful as some of you are going to find that reaction, for me, it's a basic human reaction of one protecting another from danger, no matter who it is.
I do get that sighted people are unnecessarily grabby of us at times, and that isn't okay. If I'm not about to walk in front of a car and die, then keep your paws off. But if I'm about to amble out in front of a moving car, then maybe you should be concerned. I realize that this is a very subjective topic. Sighted people don't know whether or not we have things in hand a lot of the time. It's hard to tell. Maybe I'm walking straight for this wall for a very good reason.
Grabbing the original poster in this situation is not how I would have handled it. It was not an appropriate situation to be grabbing someone. I understand your sensory aversion to being touched, and you're so entitled to that. It's just not in my nature to turn around and bite off the hand that's trying to help me in good, but completely ignorant faith. You're not a blindy billboard for education and advocacy, and you shouldn't accept that kind of treatment. You had a lot on your mind with class and the test, and you have a severe problem with being touched. But how was the poor ignorant fool supposed to know that? I know that's no excuse. We've beaten that horse to death already. You shouldn't have to be nice to people just because you feel like it. But here are some truths as I see them.
Right or wrong, most people don't meet many disabled people. Like it or not, they are basing their perceptions of the population at large on that single encounter with you.
While it is basic decency not to go around grabbing people, I also consider it basic kindness not to be rude to someone who was trying to help, even if they did it in a terrible invasive way.
The general population is going to want to help you.
Sighted people aren't watching out for you every single second of their day, so what they see might be an instant snapshot. Like someone said, they're not extrapolating your projected route in their head to see if you need help or not. It's instant.
Ah but your post protects human autonomy. A tap or a touch is different from a grab, you're right. Just as, if you go through the airport and are brushed against, this is different from being deliberately jostled, where you should check your goods and see that you didn't inherit some contraband, or have something stolen.
Yes, a tap or a touch is totally understandable.
I think we see the kind of responses here because you're right when you say 'vibe' or context, it's text here, so you can't really indicate what is really happening. No human being, sighted or blind, should have to sacrifice their autonomy. But a tap or something like that is not necessarily a sacrifice of autonomy, unless you've been asked not to do so.
Also, it's clear people can misinterpret, and that goes both ways. Assessment of danger is something that requires some thougt, not reflex only. Of course, the overt and obvious someone walking directly into the street is one thing. But that doesn't excuse a grab for a perceived situation.
I wonder if we have, for lack of a better word, a clash of instants. Average sighted person sees average blind person of average to above average independence. Average blind person listens to the interplay between parallel and perpendicular traffic to determine whether and when it's safe to cross the street. He/she may be walking up the street and in hearing range of perpendicular traffic. He/she knows perpendicular is going, and that he/she might probably have to stop and wait for a time before hearing parallel commencing forward. Maybe parallel starts going just before blind person reaches the corner, so blind person automatically starts walking because he/she knows it's safe. Average sighted person sees this and thinks help is needed. Doesn't ask; just grabs. Average blind person, being grabbed, pulls away. Neither side understands one another and neither side takes the time to do so because they're busy leading their own lives. In the case of the average blind person, that life includes simply minding his/her business and getting on with life, getting back to work from lunch or whatever. What he/she doesn't want or expect is to be grabbed. At this moment in time, average sighted person's life includes helping this blind person. They see, they interpret incorrectly, and they grab. Hard feelings on both sides. Average sighted person thinks blind person is arrogant, rude, overly hostile. Average blind person thinks sighted person is pushy, interfering, rude. Instant snapshot decisions are made on both sides based on mutually exclusive perceptions of the other's behavior. I wonder if this is an unfortunate draw with neither side understanding the other until there's a dialog. If so, how do we slow down, especially in these hectic times, to even start a dialog? Frankly, the mind boggles.
Why do we need to understand the thought processes of someone who did
the wrong thing? I don't understand why we continue to excuse people for not
obeying even the least of societies rules about interaction. Why are we so
sympathetic to sighted people who don't even give us enough respect to treat
us as equals?
Honestly, Cody, I agree with you because I mostly don't have the time even to attempt to read someone else's mind assuming there was a way to do it and figure out wy they do some of the things they do. It's that simple for me. Plus, unless it's family or a very, very, very close uh, friend, I don't really like to be touched all that much. But I admit I was attempting to be a little more clinical about the whole thing and see both sides at once. It's not so much excusing someone's behavior as it is attempting, just for a moment, to figure out why this conflict is so eternal. I really do think it's a battle of instant perceptions when I think about it. And I don't think that's gunna go away anytime soon because blindness is still seen by much of the world as unquestionably bad. It's so bad, in fact, that all the thought processes that everyday humans would ordinarily use go right out the window, I think, when they see a blind person doing something they're quote end-quote not supposed to be doing. I'm extrapolating for a moment without any possible foundation except that this is how things appear to me, but I think the average sighted person thinks of course a blind person can't be fully independent or cross the street on their own. They can't see. It's common sense. So, I gotta help them because they're in danger. And I think this thought process bleeds over into most other things. Of course a blind person can't go shopping on their own; they can't see. Of course a blind person can't raise children on their own. They can't see. Of course a blind person can't be a lawyer or a computer programmer or whatever. It's impossible. And if you somehow do all this, you're the extraordinary blind person; the so-called super-blink, which I've always hated. Then you get a standing ovation for tying your shoes. I think you can already see why it pisses me off, but it's strange that other people don't see it.
Okay, not much to add, as everyone's articulated every possible point so beautifully...
The condescention is what irks me most, in these situations.
I am one who is overwhelmed by a lot of noise, too, and I loathe being touched. I've snapped at people for this, and I always feel like shit afterwards, even if I am justified, somewhat. I don't intend to be rude. I think what may help is thinking ahead of time about what you would say in such instances. Some of the unintentional rude reaction comes from being caught off guard, for me, anyway. So, if I plan that if I'm grabbed, I'll instead say, thanks, but I'll take your arm, that's one way of dealing with it.
I never considered that the frequency of this so-called help has anything to do with how we look, but I'm a small woman, under five feet. It's hard to say whether the condescention comes from being blind, or being mistaken for a younger person (I'm 40). I kind of think I'd still get this, if I was a foot taller, though.
Sighted people recognize only the blindness, and that suggests to them that we're in constant need of assistance. They do not understand how the cane works, or have time to analyze and use common sense about it. The concept is commonplace to us, but completely foreign, to them. Frustrating, but that's how it is. If we merely tap an object with the cane, they think we're running into it, and it's tough to stand by and watch someone get hurt, which is what they assume is happening.
What annoys me almost as much as being grabbed is the person who stands around watching, and providing a running dialogue on your progress. "A little more to the left. No, left! That's it. One step, now one more, oh wait! You're about to hit a tree!." etc. Grr! Shut up, stop observing me, and go the hell away! LOL Because we're bound to be that much clumsier and nervous, knowing we're being scrutinized so closely!
I'm sorry, OP, but I'm with the others: I don't understand why you'd try to move a box in the middle of a sidewalk! Note where it is, so you can hopefully avoid it, on your return trip.
...though I admit I have been known to angrily toss a tricycle left in the middle of a sidewalk into the grass. Glad the parents of its owner weren't around to yell at me!
Forereel, love those leather jackets! I just got one, myself, last week. soft as butter. Mine's a gray-brown color.
Johndy, I loved your post 54, and agree with everything you eloquently said.
I don't understand why I *would not* try to move something if it's in my path. When I bumped it, it felt like it might be moveable, so I tried to move it. It didn't budge, so I quit trying to move it.
I have to side with the others on that point. Trying to move a newspaper box
is a little silly. Plus, just because something can be moved, doesn't mean you
should move it. If it had been a table at an outdoor cafe, you would not have
been in your right to move it out of your way. Go around things, don't move
things around you.
At the community college here, a lot of people just sit in the middle of the goddamn hallways. And I mean on the floor, not at tables or anything.
Oh, fun! Then you can step on their legs or something when your cane happens to miss them or something.
Or their laptop, which is open on the floor in front of them.
Does you about to step on there legs or laptop give them the right to reach out and touch you?
Or should they holler when you are still 2 feet away "don't freaking step on me."
We're dealing with the public here. Unfortunately when you're dealing with the public you gotta expect you're gunna either offend someone or be offended by someone. If they're gunna sit in the middle of the floor where no one expects them to be, they gotta expect to be stepped on. Maybe they can warn someone they're there; I would expect that. But we're comparing apples and oranges in this case, I think.
I don't think so. We're expecting them to understand and be aware and observant of our ways of living while they, sitting on the floor in the hallways, are expecting us to be aware and observant of their ways of living.
They might think we are rude for hitting their legs and we might think they are rude for sitting in the hallway. They dismiss our "faux pas" since we are blind. Should we not dismiss their faux pas since they are sighted? It's frustrating, but let's not bear a lasting grudge.
I've known some guys who took great pleasure in being abusive with their canes, smacking into everyone and everything they possibly could and daring sighted people to make something of it, knowing full well most wouldn't.
I've also known a sighted person who made it his business to try to plant himself in the path of every blind person he could claiming it was for the blind person's beneifit as they would need to learn to deal with obstacles and obstinate people in the world.
Assholes are assholes, blind or sighted.
And think about the wide range of vision cane users have. I've known people who used canes who could see far better than I could, back before I had my major vision loss and I had no need of a cane then. There are several visually impaired people who work in my building and their acuity ranges from one who could drive during the day only he won't lose his disability check to totally blind and everything in between. A sighted person can't know by looking at us what we can or can't see, what our needs are. The cane/dog says "blind".
Only because I live in the same city as the poster on the college, I'd say the people aren't actually sitting in the middle of the path.
I can understand how the poster would think so, but there are actually places a person might sit that are actually off the walking pat, but this is not indicated by curbs, or markings he can feel.
When they are sitting, you can actually walk past them easy if you were walking directly in the middle where a sighted person would walk.
We as blind people tend to travel on one side or the other of the path, and in that case, they'd be in the way.
Well, I can remember back when I was in school when I still had functional vision and I sat in the hall, up against the wall. Students would sit in the hall, outside the classroom waiting for the class to finish, or outside a professor's office, waiting til it was their turn to go in. I don't recall ever seeing students sit outside on paths or sidewalks, but definitely, inside buildings next to the wall.
I have socialphobia, so my anxiety over being touched is 100 times greater than just hating it because I can't see and it's embarrassing. I am so happy that I have a bit of sight and I don't collide with things so much so people don't feel the need to help me all the time, but when it happens I really can't control my actions.
I generally think the world would be a much better place if everyone kept their hands to themselves and touching other people without permition with intent were a crime.
Sure, but if some blind persons about to step on your brand new Apple laptop, and you've just noticed because it's actually on your lap, and you are busy typing and screaming is going to be to late....
I would never put my expensive toys in that kind of danger!
that's you, voyager; not everyone thinks that way.
in fact, I'm sure there are, or would be, times when you fall short of always thinking about that sort of thing, cause it's human nature for everyone to forget things occasionally.
Really?
Never use your computer while sitting outside, or say at a table in a public place?
It's not actually dangerous when 95% of the population can see you and walks on the path anyway not on the borders.
Next time you've got your laptop on the desk, or in your lap in class, I want you to think about all these students walking past with big cups of coffee.
Smile.
First of all Wayne. Absolutely nothing you can do in a situation where you are
on the floor and someone is so close to you that telling them to stop will be
effective is going to save your laptop. Its called leverage and basic physics. If
you grab them, you'll have to grab their leg. If they're walking at such a speed
that telling them you are there would not stop them, all this is going to do is
make them fall on your laptop rather than stepping on it. As for your coffee
scenario, it doesn't wash either. If I have my laptop on a table, and someone
spills coffee on it, its their responsibility, not mine. My laptop was where laptops
belong, on tables or on laps out of harm's way. There coffee was not where
coffee belongs. It was on my laptop, not in their cup or digestive systems. So
again, you fail. This seems to be a hobby for you.
I'd not grab there leg if they were going to step on me. I'd put my arm up like a bar.
That is reflex and means I have to touch them is my point, or grab them in such a manner to prevent them from damaging my laptop.
As to the coffree, she said she'd never put her stuff in danger. Well, anytime you put it on a desk in a public area, it is in some danger. Now if someone spills coffee on it, sure, it is there fault, but that won't change the fact it is broken.
Oh, and if you the blind step on my laptop when I'm sitting on the ground it is also your fault.
I'm sorry, but sighted people don't sit in the middle of a pathway, you are not traveling in the path.
And once more.
The odds of someone spilling a cup of cuffee on your laptop are about the same as someone stepping on it while you are sitting on the ground at the side of the pat. Really low.
The thing that makes these odd higher is if the person walking is blind and not using there cane properly, or drunk.
I'm a blind guy. I walk around Starbucks with cups of coffee, and I place my laptop on the table all the time. Never once lost either yet.
Clearly you haven't been to a college recently. People sit wherever they can
find a spot. Hell, its not uncommon for people to lay in the middle of the hallway
during finals week.
I've got one about 10 minutes walk. I go often.
Even when people are laying around there's a path.
Plus, I personally can feel them with my cane, gently, before I'm in danger of stepping on them.
Have you step on any of your college class mates lately?
Agreed with cody here. Inside the college buildings that have classrooms, and
inside my high school when I was a student, for that matter... People would sit
everywhere, and anywhere, in the middle of hallways in groups, on the stairs,
directly in your way basically, even someone sitting with a laptop on the right
side of the hallway, with their legs splayed out is a safety hazard. Because
people simply do not give a fuck about those around them, at that age, for the
most part. Walking outside is a bit of a different story. On college paths i've
been on, which are out side, people will stand in the center of the path, they
may sit or stand on the outside edges of the path. But that's different than the
complete lack of caring for anyone but themselves you'll find inside the
buildings themselves.
I am only talking outside, not inside buildings.
Oh, accept when I used the coffee example. For that, I was talking about inside.
That coffee and sleepy students is downright dangerous! It needs to be banned!
Smile.
Outside people usually sit on benches or at tables. Not many people want to
sit on concrete when there's a chair to be had. But its pointless to differentiate
between inside and outside, the result is exactly the same. Someone sitting on
the ground inside is as easy to step on or trip over as someone sitting on the
ground outside. It makes no difference. You're just trying to be as specific as
possible so it seems like you're argument is valid. Its not. I don't find people
sitting on the ground in the middle of lakes either, it doesn't mean the situation
isn't a problem elsewhere.
Actually I'm not trying to do anything.
This started with my observing that the college the poster was speaking about had people sitting on the ground in the paths.
I said in this case I'd not seen it at that college due to it being in my city and I've walked in the buildings and outside many many times.
I've observed them sitting on the ground, but in the borders, and I could see how that be a problem.
The rest of my post were just me being silly.
I've ended my actual debate many post ago.
I gave up. You all can not be touched. It's a sin. I've seen the light.
An update:
It's been close to a full semester since my original post, and I'm doing better. People touch me less. I don't know why this is, but I have a few ideas.
It could be partially due to the fact that I walk to the same building on campus every day, and people are used to seeing me around there. I say partially because I think I'm touched less in general, not just at school.
I suspect that my posture has made the most difference. I try to walk everywhere with my head held up (maybe even a little too high) and shoulders back. I can actually hear my surroundings better this way. I also try to make coordinated movements like I know where I'm going, even if I'm a little unsure.
Incidents like the newspaper box are also less likely to happen because I'm getting better at detecting objects without coming into contact with them.
Noise is still a serious problem for me, but life is improving.
That's great, Voyager!
It's wonderful to hear that you're doing better. Definitely keep up the confident posture and walk; those will help you in all sorts of situations. Even sighted people are cautioned about looking lost or confused. You may as well wear "target!" on your forehead, at least in some neighbourhoods.
I used to be grabbed a lot my freshman year of university, probably because I was taking things slowly, still a little unsure of where I was going. I even had one guy come from behind, wrap an arm around my waist, and start walking me briskly down a hallway. It wasn't even close to where I was headed, and it took him far too long before he stopped and asked where I -did want to go. Then he led me back up the hallway to the door I actually wanted (the one I was originally about to open), and acted like I should be grateful for the assistance. I despair sometimes.
I've grown far more assertive since then.
Beautiful.
Hope it keeps getting better.
Good for you, Voyager. I don't get overwhelmed with sound the way you do, but acting confident does help.
Yeah, there's been a lot of back and forth in this topic, and really what it comes down to is that grabbing people isn't okay. I've been tapped on the shoulder or hailed from a distance when someone wants to direct me, and in both of those cases there's still the assumption that I don't know where I'm going. I don't love it, but I won't bristle either. I might well shout out to someone if I was able to help them, or tap them on the shoulder if I was trying to get their attention. More likely I'd just say "Hey, excuse me?" or something like that.
Interesting thing to ponder though. The sighted, I think, are used to correcting children when they bash into things. I think that, to some extent at least, the desire to help or intercede is instinctual, or semi-instinctual. It might be a default that your average sighted person has to fight against; hell, maybe we all have to fight it, but since us blind folks don't actually see someone about to hit the wall or mailbox or whatnot, we don't react.
No, this doesn't mean it's okay to grab. Not a bit. It does mean that it might be just a touch harder to not intercede in some cases than a few of you are making it look, particularly when a collision or the appearance of imminent danger is in the offing.
Voyager, I'm glad to hear you finally might have learned that getting overly stressed and hostile about the day-to-day happenings of life actually makes things far worse rather than helping them.
as has been said, people mean well so there's no need to go crazy and act like they're violating you when all they aim to do is help you. cause trust me, you'll know if someone is grabbing you out of kindness or malice. if you don't, then I don't know what to tell ya.
It should be noted that Voyager's profile says she has Aspergers Syndrome, which places here somewhere on the autism spectrum.
As such, her aversion to touch is involuntary. Apparently, no two autistic people are alike, but among other things, one commonality is a tendency to get overwhelmed by outside stimuli. Touch is just such a stimulus, so Voyager's difficulty with it isn't something she's just going to be able to "get over", as such. She may find ways to cope or to de-stress about it, but the base aversion will probably always be there, and always has.
Voyager, if I'm wrong on this, please set me straight.
SW is right. Being on a large crowded campus is overwhelming, and I'm more likely to have a bad reaction in an overwhelming situation. I want a computer science degree, so I have to do the best I can with the wiring I've got.
Speaking of hostility, I find angry behavior more comprehensible if I know enough about the other person's situation to realize they're actually just in pain or scared.
I just read the first post have not read recent posts, but agree with the sentaments here. I've been guiding someone else when grabbed roughly by the arm. had people come up and put their arm around my waist and start pulling me where they want. The most invasive thing that has happened to me was while I was in a pool that I'm in all the time. I was walking back and forth in the shallow end waiting for the deep end to open for my water arobics class, and got close to the rope, but had one had on the wall no worries, but a lady in the pool with me decided that this wasn't ok, and instead of saying I was close to the rope she grabbed my breast, squeezed and tried to turn me using my breast. I pushed her hand away and walked back to the wall of the pool and cooled down for a few minutes. I was afraid I was going to punch her in the face. There is no way no how that was or is ok. I don't care who you are, guiding is never ever done that way.
believe it or not, I'm quite familiar with autism. however, autistic or not, the world makes excuses for no one and we all have to try and understand how the world works on the level that we can, no matter who we are. autistic or not, we all have to figure out how to adapt the best we can. that includes accepting the fact that people are generally good-natured and are not thinking of us in a pittying way when they reach out to help us when we feel we don't need it. we also have to realize that, as Wayne and I have been saying, it sometimes is about letting people do their good deed for the day.
for example, when a person goes to the store and a shopping assistant comes to help them that they've had once before, then walks up and gives the customer a full hug, the customer should not rudely say, "I don't know you! I've only met you once before! don't touch me!" the kind thing to do would be to receive the hug well, hug the shopping assistant back if you still feel like being kind the way most people do, then go about your shopping. there is no reason to create a fuss about nothing, cause as has been said in the past, one day you all will need help and it's likely no one will be there in your time of need because of how closed off/high strung the majority of you are.
You obviously don't know all that much about autism then, or else you'd realize that in many cases an autistic person's response to hostile stimuli is partially or even entirely out of their control.
If you have control, then yeah, make judicious use of it;
But not everyone has that much control.
Also, the fact remains that you should never ever just up and grab somebody.
Is it the end of the world and a grave insult? No.
Is it still kind of a stupid thing to do? Yeah.
There are good ways and bad ways to assert yourself. Screaming in someone's face is a bad one; shaking them off or telling them firmly to not grab you is a good one.
Apparently you seem to enjoy it when people get warm fuzzies from helping you. You let it roll off your back. Well, if you want to be misrepresented, misunderstood and mistreated, just keep on going; the people you interact with will be badly equipped to deal with a person in need who has the temerity to speak up.
Chelsea just like you say, I'm adapting the best way I know how right now.
If one route to class is too much for me to deal with every day, I find another one. Interestingly, an O&M teacher I had for years as an adult thought I could only memorize routes and never create new ones from information I already knew. As an adaptation to life on campus I've developed this skill even though it was underdeveloped before, and some people thought I was incapable of it.
Another thing I've learned is that if lots of students hear from a professor that they don't need to touch me to get my attention, they listen.
I have limited energy reserves to deal with certain stimuli, and when that energy goes, it goes fast. I can find myself very disoriented and doing dangerous things like veering into traffic or not quite remembering which part of the neighborhood I'm in. If I'm lucky it happens at home instead, and I just don't get work done. I can prevent shutdown by recognizing the warning signs, or by just avoiding the things that cause it. Part of that defense means I take measures to prevent strange hands from grabbing me. Notice the word "prevent". I'd much rather prevent. If they're grabbing, I'm wasting resources dealing with it.
I can't stand it if someone grabs me either! stupid people let me tell you.
She never talked about her second disability until late in this board.
I did suggest she get a helper at the top to releave the stress, and this was before I knew about the rest.
I've said my part on this already, but wanted to add that.
Instead of struggling, and blaming the world that first, has no idea, and secondly, is just not perfect as to how to treat a blind person, I choose to adapt, and relax.
I think sometimes if I stayed uptight about the many things that go on because we are blind, I'd be angry daily.
Life is just to good to do that to myself.
Sure, I understood it is an issue for many of you. I just don't understand the anger.
I guess, I'm not built that way.
Next, I've had to learn to adapt for many peoples short comings to be as I am.
Last again, I am happy you have gotten better. It's all good.
Wayne, I completely understand where you're coming from, but you need to understand, if you don't already, that not everyone has the luxury of "relaxing" and not caring about it. Small women like me, for example, are more vulnerable, and being blind just makes it worse. We don't have the luxury of choosing not to be uptight when grabbed. And, as Cody has demonstrated earlier in this thread, no one is truly invulnerable, be they male or female. So while you, Wayne, may find it easy to defend yourself and/or free yourself from unwanted touch, not all of us can.
Yes, I know that most people are grabbing with good intentions, and that no harm is meant. But I'm not advocating being "angry daily". There's a difference between being constantly angry and rude, and simply telling anyone who touches me without permission "please don't do that." We don't have to be jerks, but we don't have to "relax" and accept things with the potential to harm us, either. If we take the stance that sighted people don't know better, how can we teach them? If we assume they just don't get it, are we not preventing them from ever getting it? How can they fix what they don't know is broken?
I'd already rested my case.
Read above if you wish.
Smile.
I also don't think there are enough of us to teach sighted people, so I'll guess this will always be with you.
Something else that bears a mention:
Voyager only mentioned Aspergers later on, yes, but it's right in her profile. I guess some of you guys don't look at other user profiles? Personally, when I see something that looks off, that's the first place I go. I saw her post about trying to move the mailbox and her mentioning how overwhelming it was, looked at her profile, saw Aspergers and went "Yup, that'd probably do it".
No. I personally only read profiles to learn general things about a person.
I don't expect them to have anything medical related, so I'd not look for that.
I don't think mental state has anything to do with it. I've tried to push things
out of the way, only to find they don't move before. Who hasn't? You can't tell
me you've never pulled a push door, or tried to open a locked door. We all do
things like this.
But the way she described it, how it wasn't in line with the others and ought to move. Also, you don't usually hear about people being overwhelmed in quite that way.
I'm not saying it's extremely bizarre, but it was definitely different enough that I had a look at her profile and found an explanation there.
Well I'd like to say that it's good tah sighted people help you around. I don't like when they grab or they usually take your hand to guide you.
I'd rather take someone's arm and have them guide me. In case if it's someone close to me then I wouldn't mind if the just grabbed me, but sometimes sighted people do not know the correct way to guide someone, so try to not take offense.
to assume that I'm unfamiliar with autism just cause I don't cut a person who has it slack, is wrong.
a friend I've had since childhood who I grew up with is severely autistic, and I've seen the ways in which people work with him to ensure that he acts as close to right as he can. I also have a friend whose brother is autistic, and rather than making excuses for his disability his parents teach him that he has to accept that he can't always have his way.
so, contrary to what most people believe, it is indeed possible to teach autistics at least on some level how they should behave. as with a non-disabled child you teach the autistic child on whatever level he or she is able to learn things.
As close to right as he can? What exactly does that mean? And, who defines right?
I did not hit anybody. I did not yell at anybody. I was overwhelmed and I snapped. Don't all humans do that under the right conditions?
Depends on the person as to what conditions make them snap.
A simple walk on a side walk doesn't creat the snap condition for most however.
You personally can't rate yourself as to the "right"
It is like saying, I am blind,, and I don't see the sunset.
Most people can see the sunset, so our conditions are based on our condition. Smile.
That's what I would be asking. I don't think your friends would appreciate you using those words to define them.
On a slightly different note, there are the people who shout from far off, "turn left!" "Turn right!" What if I don't want to?
Lol Impricator, I've actually asked that. If it's done with a smile, it can cause the other person to think that maybe I actually know where I'm going. Maybe I veered off the path for a reason. Maybe it's a nice day and I'm in no rush to go back inside. It's only useful when I'm in a calm state of mind, though.
Yes, very true. :)